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Not positive but I think they call it compression... they compress everything into a muddled infusion where everything is evened out. Makes for easier radio transmission or something I guess..???

CD's aren't compressed at all. MP3s are.

The dynamic range of a CD is limited to 16 bits (~ 65000 levels), by the size of a single data sample. In theory analog systems like analog tape and vinyl have infinite dynamic range I'd think. Regarding vinyl, the dynamic range is probably limited by the grain of the vinyl material, the needle,etc.

44100 samples per second are done to digitize the music for CD's, which limits the top frequency that is possible to about 22kHz. My dog might be disappointed in that, but not me.
 
Not positive but I think they call it compression... they compress everything into a muddled infusion where everything is evened out. Makes for easier radio transmission or something I guess..???

Like @passedpawn said, it's not really compression in the sense that an mp3 is compressed from a WAV file. A lot of people use the term "brickwalled" which is also kind of weird but whatever. Essentially music can lose the detail as it gets mastered louder and louder. If you look at old school CDs prior to the loudness war, there are lots of peaks and valleys in the digital music image. As the mastering gets louder, those valleys close up and you are left with a solid image (presumably that's where the term brickwall comes from). So compression isn't really the right word but you are correct in saying that it gets muddled. But it sounds louder and presumably research showed that sells records.
 
Just for kicks, I thought I'd share with this group my music system for our living room:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghG379hnkL8[/ame]

LOL. This is from the guy who makes them, not me. I thought you audiophiles might get a laugh out of it. Twenty years ago, I got rid of my Harmon Kardon and Bose system - just more than I wanted or cared about. Sorry, didn't mean to derail and certainly am not poking fun at those of you who are really into it, just thought you might get a laugh out of my cigar box blue tooth speaker.
 
I've been running a OA RR2150 for a while now and I must say it is incredible. Most of my source audio resides as FLAC files on my media server which is basically a Mac Mini hooked to several external drives. The OA has a very nice DAC built right in so I can just throw my audio straight into the amp from the server and, honestly, there is no discernible difference between that and pure analog, or at least not to my ears. Even MP3 sounds great through this amp, straight from the Mini.
 
Well I knew it was something like that. I still have about 350 LP Vinyl but I never play them....I like the ease of digital. And I dont really like listing to a bunch of just one artists songs in a row anymore. Probably why I was into Real to Real back in the day I could make my own play list.

Carry on.
 
And I dont really like listing to a bunch of just one artists songs in a row anymore.

Ah, the death of the concept album. How can one listen to ANY pink floyd without going from album front to back entirely? Chemical Romance, Jay-Z, Green Day. So many albums that told a story. The Who - Tommy? He's a blind pinball wizard. Check out Sinatra Watertown.

Sorry for the sidebar. I used to LOVE coming home with a new album and listening to it with headphones. Hopefully the album liner contained the lyrics.
 
Ah, the death of the concept album. How can one listen to ANY pink floyd without going from album front to back entirely? Chemical Romance, Jay-Z, Green Day. So many albums that told a story. The Who - Tommy? He's a blind pinball wizard. Check out Sinatra Watertown.

Sorry for the sidebar. I used to LOVE coming home with a new album and listening to it with headphones. Hopefully the album liner contained the lyrics.

I use to like LSD and mushrooms too...people change...:fro:
 
Albums are awesome, whether concept or otherwise. If like an artist but only listen to their popular songs, you're likely missing a ton of great music.
 
CD's aren't compressed at all. MP3s are.

The dynamic range of a CD is limited to 16 bits (~ 65000 levels), by the size of a single data sample. In theory analog systems like analog tape and vinyl have infinite dynamic range I'd think. Regarding vinyl, the dynamic range is probably limited by the grain of the vinyl material, the needle,etc.

44100 samples per second are done to digitize the music for CD's, which limits the top frequency that is possible to about 22kHz. My dog might be disappointed in that, but not me.

This is somewhat the way I understand it. Original CD players were one bit. One, sixteen, or 32 bits to cover an analog sine wave seems like it would plausibly leave something out. I'm not sure if on a Hi-Fi system I could tell which was which in a blind test, but almost always would prefer vinyl if i had a choice. I dont have any bieber on vinyl though so roku rules for me. Been to long for me since I listened to vinyl but I remember enjoying it very much. Infact we had some friends over at our house this one time. Everyone was wasted and like a half hour later we realized we were listening to the jam section of, i heard it through the grapevine, ccr. The record scratch was looping that jam. Man that jam is sweet. Interesting side note they used it at a high end dealer for a listening test I did a few months ago, unrequested.
 
This is somewhat the way I understand it. Original CD players were one bit. One, sixteen, or 32 bits to cover an analog sine wave seems like it would plausibly leave something out. I'm not sure if on a Hi-Fi system I could tell which was which in a blind test, but almost always would prefer vinyl if i had a choice. I dont have any bieber on vinyl though so roku rules for me. Been to long for me since I listened to vinyl but I remember enjoying it very much. Infact we had some friends over at our house this one time. Everyone was wasted and like a half hour later we realized we were listening to the jam section of, i heard it through the grapevine, ccr. The record scratch was looping that jam. Man that jam is sweet. Interesting side note they used it at a high end dealer for a listening test I did a few months ago, unrequested.


Not exactly correct, but not far off.

CDs have always been 16 bit, 44.1khz sampling rate. 44.1 refers to 44,100 samples per second, so each second of audio is divided into 44,100 sections of audio. 16 bits refers to (simply) the dynamic range of the sample. It was correctly noted that 16 bit sample depth give you 65,536 possible levels of "gain" from -∞ up to 0dbfs.
It is also correct that a sample rate of 44.1khz allows for a maximum frequency of 22,050hz (makes sense, right? The most oscillations that 44,100 samples could cover is one positive and one negative cycle). This is mostly theoretical though, as all CDs only cover 19,980hz (20hz to 20khz).
As a recording engineer, I much prefer 24bit 48khz recordings, as they offer 16,777,216 levels of dynamic range, and a theoretical 24khz of frequency range. They do actually sound better, too. Especially for musical recordings. But really, more importantly than 24khz of total range, is more "space" in the middle range frequencies for detail and nuance.
Same goes for 96khz, and to a point, 192khz recordings.

Now for the really interesting stuff, 1 bit audio is a thing! To make it work, though, you need incredibly high sample rates, in the order of 2.5MHz (2.5 million samples per second) to get it to really work. Some light reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
Neat stuff!

Also, you are correct, any digital sampling of an analog wave will leave out some information, but as long as there is enough information to extrapolate a wave, it's usually pretty accurate.

Vinyl, or any truly analog audio source, does technically represent the analog source material more accurately, but there are so many other variables that go into the source recording quality and playback equipment quality that I'd bet that it would be hard for most to tell the difference between a well mastered CD and a clean Vinyl.
 
Not exactly correct, but not far off.

CDs have always been 16 bit, 44.1khz sampling rate. 44.1 refers to 44,100 samples per second, so each second of audio is divided into 44,100 sections of audio. 16 bits refers to (simply) the dynamic range of the sample. It was correctly noted that 16 bit sample depth give you 65,536 possible levels of "gain" from -∞ up to 0dbfs.
It is also correct that a sample rate of 44.1khz allows for a maximum frequency of 22,050hz (makes sense, right? The most oscillations that 44,100 samples could cover is one positive and one negative cycle). This is mostly theoretical though, as all CDs only cover 19,980hz (20hz to 20khz).
As a recording engineer, I much prefer 24bit 48khz recordings, as they offer 16,777,216 levels of dynamic range, and a theoretical 24khz of frequency range. They do actually sound better, too. Especially for musical recordings. But really, more importantly than 24khz of total range, is more "space" in the middle range frequencies for detail and nuance.
Same goes for 96khz, and to a point, 192khz recordings.

Now for the really interesting stuff, 1 bit audio is a thing! To make it work, though, you need incredibly high sample rates, in the order of 2.5MHz (2.5 million samples per second) to get it to really work. Some light reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
Neat stuff!

Also, you are correct, any digital sampling of an analog wave will leave out some information, but as long as there is enough information to extrapolate a wave, it's usually pretty accurate.

Vinyl, or any truly analog audio source, does technically represent the analog source material more accurately, but there are so many other variables that go into the source recording quality and playback equipment quality that I'd bet that it would be hard for most to tell the difference between a well mastered CD and a clean Vinyl.

I've listened to SACD. I'm not a golden ear, and it was just OK.

PCM gets rid of the output DAC that is required with any digital recording. PCM, while digital itself, is just a form of analog that only requires a BUNCH of high-order low-pass filters to reconstitute the sine waves that were encoded.

I think it's nice to say that you have a wholly analog system, but really if you can encode in 24-bits (or more), it's always gonna be at least as good as PCM, and it takes very little filtering to get rid of any aliasing you'd have from a stream of 24-bit samples. I just don't really see any advantage in PCM, except to say it's not "digital".
 
...

My head hurts.png
 
Here is my take on digital vs analog. If you like music that recorded before the digital age, getting a high quality copy on CD is a crapshoot. If it is something that was popular and sold/sells millions of copies, The Stones or Beatles for example, you stand a good chance of finding a properly executed digital copy. But if what you want is an album that did not sell Gold or Plantinum, chances are the CD copy will sound like crap.
 
I've listened to SACD. I'm not a golden ear, and it was just OK.

PCM gets rid of the output DAC that is required with any digital recording. PCM, while digital itself, is just a form of analog that only requires a BUNCH of high-order low-pass filters to reconstitute the sine waves that were encoded.

I think it's nice to say that you have a wholly analog system, but really if you can encode in 24-bits (or more), it's always gonna be at least as good as PCM, and it takes very little filtering to get rid of any aliasing you'd have from a stream of 24-bit samples. I just don't really see any advantage in PCM, except to say it's not "digital".


Yeah, DSD is neat in theory, but not really in practice. I just like the technical side of how it works. Very neat way of getting digital as close to analog as possible.
If you have to have analog, just listen to analog!
I deal in A to D recording all day, so I've got no problem with digital. In fact, some of the best recordings I've ever heard are well recorded 24/96 masters. Wonderful depth and dynamic range, technically better than most fully analog recordings!
 
Not positive but I think they call it compression... they compress everything into a muddled infusion where everything is evened out. Makes for easier radio transmission or something I guess..???

Yeah, it's not "compression" in the sense that we talk about other types of compression.

As passedpawn mentioned, CDs are non-compressed, while MP3s are compressed. However, compression isn't bad in itself. There are methods of compression which are "lossless", meaning that the compression method can actually recover back all original information if the operation is reversed. However, MP3s are lossy compression.

But the CD process of analog to digital conversion is not perfect (although pretty good). As afro_lou points out, there are much higher-quality methods to record music and digitize it. Higher sampling rates and higher bit rates allow for more faithful representation of the original source. I'm an electrical engineer but I don't do recording stuff, so I'll defer to all the technical stuff he said.

Essentially the difference between CD and the recording he refers to would be similar to trying to record a video using standard-def, high-def, 4K, or 8K. Essentially the difference between CD and what afro_lou talks about is similar to the difference between playback in HD and 4K. There's simply more information in the 4K recording than the HD recording.

And then conversion of that source file to MP3 (i.e. transcoding) would be like taking that beautiful HD or 4K recording and converting it for streaming playback on your tablet. Your tablet doesn't support the resolution it was produced in, so they must convert it to reduce the information to what you have the capability to display. And then they compress it because internet bandwidth isn't free (and you may not have a sufficient connection speed to support it), so they want to reduce the amount of data they need to send too.

However, what I'm talking about here is not "compression" in that sense, although they often use the same word. Essentially when they talk about that sort of compression they're talking about squeezing the recording into the upper end of the range. Think of it this way: on that video recording we were discussing, we want the black to be DEEP black and the white to be BRILLIANT white. That is the most faithful representation of the source. But if it's an advertisement, they want it to grab your attention, and humans are attracted to bright shiny things. So if it was a video advertisement, they push the brightness up as much as they possibly can to make sure it grabs your attention.

They do the same thing with sound. Essentially the "compression" they they do is with the amplitude of the signal. They take the quiet parts of the recording and increase the amplitude to make the quiet parts louder. And they take the loud parts and increase the amplitude to make the loud parts as close to the maximum loudness that the audio format can take. They're no longer even attempting to faithfully reproduce the actual performance of the artist. They're just squeezing/smashing the recording as much into the highest portion of the medium's possible loudness.

Why do they do this? Because people notice it. You'll notice this with commercials on TV. Why are commercials louder than your TV program despite the fact that you haven't changed the volume? Because they want to get your attention. It's the same way with music. Something that is "louder" gets your attention, which gets more radio airplay, which rises higher on the charts. Audiophiles be damned, it's all about getting noticed. And when you're driving down the freeway and dealing with all the other noise of the road, or listening on chintzy little earbud speakers, it doesn't make a big difference. It's not like your equipment would actually sound good no matter what the source material.

When you actually try to listen to it on high quality equipment, though, it sounds jumbled and like an auditory assault. It's just a wall of sound, it's hard for your ears to even pick out the individual aspects any longer. It's terrible.

I mentioned those Magnepan speakers earlier. I found (when my old roommate had them) that properly mastered recordings that maintained dynamic range sounded absolutely beautiful on those speakers. Recordings that were overly "loud" just sounded terrible. Basically things like classical music, acoustic music, or live performances did best. It was like you were sitting in front of the artists playing just for you. Pop/rock that was destroyed by the mastering engineers did worst.

So, all that said, when they say "compression" it's basically saying that they're compressing the original wide dynamic range into a much smaller band, right up at the very top. So they increase overall "loudness" by doing so.
 
I mentioned those Magnepan speakers earlier. I found (when my old roommate had them) that properly mastered recordings that maintained dynamic range sounded absolutely beautiful on those speakers. Recordings that were overly "loud" just sounded terrible. Basically things like classical music, acoustic music, or live performances did best. It was like you were sitting in front of the artists playing just for you. Pop/rock that was destroyed by the mastering engineers did worst.

Yep, ultra high end or just high end stereo components make poorly recorded music sound bad. It's the whole crap in/crap out thing. My Thiel CS 3.5s, which were replaced by my Magnepan 3.6Rs, were much more ruthlessly revealing. The Magnepans do much better with poorly recorded music. They do everything better except for low frequencies as the Thiels were -3db at somewhere around 20hz or something like that. There's not much music down there, though, so I'm okay with the trade-off. With good recordings, it's like you aren't listening to speakers, it's like you are listening to individual musicians in front of you. Depending on how the recording was done, they can be appear to be placed behind, in front of, or outside of the speakers, beyond the room's walls. That should more or less be the case with any decent gear properly set up in a good room.
 
Yep, ultra high end or just high end stereo components make poorly recorded music sound bad. It's the whole crap in/crap out thing. My Thiel CS 3.5s, which were replaced by my Magnepan 3.6Rs, were much more ruthlessly revealing. The Magnepans do much better with poorly recorded music. They do everything better except for low frequencies as the Thiels were -3db at somewhere around 20hz or something like that. There's not much music down there, though, so I'm okay with the trade-off. With good recordings, it's like you aren't listening to speakers, it's like you are listening to individual musicians in front of you. Depending on how the recording was done, they can be appear to be placed behind, in front of, or outside of the speakers, beyond the room's walls. That should more or less be the case with any decent gear properly set up in a good room.

My roommate's were just the "lowly" MMG. So I could see them having less room to be forgiving to poorly mastered sources than the 3.6R...
 
I guess what I was trying to agree with and or name is the fact that many if not most of today's sound engineers "Balance" ( there I go again probably using wrong terminology) out all the peaks and valleys to one general level of sound. Therefor reducing the dynamics. I listened to a talk radio program about it a couple years back. I'm not one for remembering specifics on things unless I use them all the time...Sorry

Carry on

FWIW ..My old Pioneer receiver pushing my HPM100's are a lot more appreciated by me now then back in the 70's as my hearing was better then and I precieved them as just to dang bright.
 
Yep! Call it compression (it is) or balancing (it is) or brick walling (it is), it's all just reducing the dynamic range of the recording.
Basically, compression reduces dynamics by making the quieter stuff louder, and limiting reduces dynamics by making the loud stuff quieter.
The way I think of brick walling is kind of like your recording is a car driving down the road, and (surprise!) it hits a brick wall! The brick wall represents 0dbfs (0 decibels full scale, the highest digital output possible). So when your car smashes into the wall, all the quiet stuff (the back of the car) gets "compressed" towards the loud stuff (the front of the car), and the loud stuff (the front of the car) gets "limited" back towards the quieter stuff. Not a perfect metaphor, but it's all I've got [emoji1]
Oh, and then the tow truck (uh, the mastering engineer in this situation!), pulls your squashed car back from the wall just a little bit, so you don't get any more distortion. [emoji23]
:drunk:
 
Perfect Analogy Mate!:rockin:...yep that's kind of what they were talking about. And pretty sure they through around the word compression quite a bit. Even if only as a layman's term for the uneducated such as myself...it got the point across....But not as effectively as yours.
 
Not exactly correct, but not far off.

CDs have always been 16 bit, 44.1khz sampling rate. 44.1 refers to 44,100 samples per second, so each second of audio is divided into 44,100 sections of audio. 16 bits refers to (simply) the dynamic range of the sample. It was correctly noted that 16 bit sample depth give you 65,536 possible levels of "gain" from -∞ up to 0dbfs.
It is also correct that a sample rate of 44.1khz allows for a maximum frequency of 22,050hz (makes sense, right? The most oscillations that 44,100 samples could cover is one positive and one negative cycle). This is mostly theoretical though, as all CDs only cover 19,980hz (20hz to 20khz).
As a recording engineer, I much prefer 24bit 48khz recordings, as they offer 16,777,216 levels of dynamic range, and a theoretical 24khz of frequency range. They do actually sound better, too. Especially for musical recordings. But really, more importantly than 24khz of total range, is more "space" in the middle range frequencies for detail and nuance.
Same goes for 96khz, and to a point, 192khz recordings.

Now for the really interesting stuff, 1 bit audio is a thing! To make it work, though, you need incredibly high sample rates, in the order of 2.5MHz (2.5 million samples per second) to get it to really work. Some light reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
Neat stuff!

Also, you are correct, any digital sampling of an analog wave will leave out some information, but as long as there is enough information to extrapolate a wave, it's usually pretty accurate.

Vinyl, or any truly analog audio source, does technically represent the analog source material more accurately, but there are so many other variables that go into the source recording quality and playback equipment quality that I'd bet that it would be hard for most to tell the difference between a well mastered CD and a clean Vinyl.

Awesome post, thanks for the knowledge. I am a little confused but I'm willing to see confusion as a path towards understanding. What would make the vinyl and CD sound different, a cheap system or more expensive? ( i assume more expensive) It's interesting to me what the human ear or taste or senses can sense verses what we cannot. The only example I can think of is with something like the brulosophy experiments. They test all kinds of stuff and find no difference and then test plastic vs. Glass Carboy and people can taste a difference. It's strange that depending on the setup the ear can hear the difference between 44,000 samples and a true analog source. I see pictures going this way to. The purity of a truly analog picture might come back vs Big megapixel cameras. Its no doubt easier to work with digital formats and they offer conveniences and things analog sources don't. That being said I still want a Hasselblad or a Mamiya camera because they seem to take amazing pictures. My friend is a professional photographer and he does not use his Hasselblad anymore because they can use Photoshop and other tools so quickly and easily. And do jobs in hours for what used to take days. I've been in recording studios and seen Pro Tools work. It is amazing what you guys do with music . What about auto-tune ? I saw Adam Levine live and I've also heard a bunch of YouTube videos of him live and he sounds nothing like the recordings. I've also heard Britney Spears singing without Auto-Tune. Is auto-tune really doing that much? Guess I'm rambling and I've totally lost my point by now but I appreciate the knowledge very much and I'm curious to see the kind of comeback analog will make. To my understanding records are going for 40 or $50 that used to be a quarter.
 
Yeah, DSD is neat in theory, but not really in practice. I just like the technical side of how it works. Very neat way of getting digital as close to analog as possible.
If you have to have analog, just listen to analog!
I deal in A to D recording all day, so I've got no problem with digital. In fact, some of the best recordings I've ever heard are well recorded 24/96 masters. Wonderful depth and dynamic range, technically better than most fully analog recordings!

Sorry if this is a dumb question, so is the music you produce digitally better than what you actually heard while recording?
 
I mentioned those Magnepan speakers earlier. I found (when my old roommate had them) that properly mastered recordings that maintained dynamic range sounded absolutely beautiful on those speakers. Recordings that were overly "loud" just sounded terrible. Basically things like classical music, acoustic music, or live performances did best. It was like you were sitting in front of the artists playing just for you. Pop/rock that was destroyed by the mastering engineers did worst.

So, all that said, when they say "compression" it's basically saying that they're compressing the original wide dynamic range into a much smaller band, right up at the very top. So they increase overall "loudness" by doing so.

Audio compression has been used for years and actually started in broadcasting. A lot of the early pop and rock recordings were compressed in order to sound better on a car radio, where road noise could easily drown out quieter passages. Not to be confused, as you say, with digital file compression.

I've been a Magnepan freak since 1986 when I bought a pair of SMG-A's. They were roughly the size of MMG's. Around 2004, I bought the slightly larger MG-12's, and just last year I bought a pair of 1.7i's.

With adequate amplification and proper placement in the room, they sound spooky good. An amplifier with a high amperage power supply is essential, and they really need to be placed well out into the room. Mine sound the best about five feet from the front wall.

They are, however, not to everyone's liking. I always say they're a selfish person's speaker because they have a fairly limited sweet spot. I wouldn't expect them to be the choice of high dB metal-heads, and they're not an especially good party speaker because they sound quite a bit different when not seated in the sweet spot. They also have a low WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) due to their imposing size.

I am running them with a Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE preamp and Spread Spectrum Technologies Son of Ampzilla II power amp. It is an awesome combination.
 
Awesome post, thanks for the knowledge. I am a little confused but I'm willing to see confusion as a path towards understanding. What would make the vinyl and CD sound different, a cheap system or more expensive? ( i assume more expensive) It's interesting to me what the human ear or taste or senses can sense verses what we cannot. The only example I can think of is with something like the brulosophy experiments. They test all kinds of stuff and find no difference and then test plastic vs. Glass Carboy and people can taste a difference. It's strange that depending on the setup the ear can hear the difference between 44,000 samples and a true analog source. I see pictures going this way to. The purity of a truly analog picture might come back vs Big megapixel cameras. Its no doubt easier to work with digital formats and they offer conveniences and things analog sources don't. That being said I still want a Hasselblad or a Mamiya camera because they seem to take amazing pictures. My friend is a professional photographer and he does not use his Hasselblad anymore because they can use Photoshop and other tools so quickly and easily. And do jobs in hours for what used to take days. I've been in recording studios and seen Pro Tools work. It is amazing what you guys do with music . What about auto-tune ? I saw Adam Levine live and I've also heard a bunch of YouTube videos of him live and he sounds nothing like the recordings. I've also heard Britney Spears singing without Auto-Tune. Is auto-tune really doing that much? Guess I'm rambling and I've totally lost my point by now but I appreciate the knowledge very much and I'm curious to see the kind of comeback analog will make. To my understanding records are going for 40 or $50 that used to be a quarter.

To answer your first question, I hope, vinyl has physical restrictions that a CD doesn't. Especially when it comes to low end. On a CD, bass information is the same kind of ones and zeros as the other frequencies. On a record, more low end requires wider grooves. Hence, the 12 inch single. Vinyl will inherently have less compression applied from the ME due, if nothing else, to this restriction. If all the low end is LOUD, the grooves must be deeper and wider. If the are to deep, you get playback issues. If they are to wide, you get limitations of capacity per side. Park of the low end issue, IIRC, is addressed by the RIAA curve applied by phono preamps. They are designed to boost low end at a set point, so the grooves can be cut more narrow but provide the target net end result.
I think we have begun the descent out of the loudness wars, as radio is essentially dieing to streaming. What is sad is that, with streaming we have the capability to get behind HD(24bit, 96k+) audio, but no one is doing it. The files exist(any ME worth their rate is storing HD files alongside the 44.1 files). The infrastructure and network capabilities exist(720p takes more bandwidth than HD audio). It's just not happening.
 
Old school, Pioneer SX-1980 paired with a Dynaco ST-70 driving a pair of Klipsch Forte's utilizing a Dynaco tube pre-amp.

IMG_0571 (1).jpg
 
To answer your first question, I hope, vinyl has physical restrictions that a CD doesn't. Especially when it comes to low end. On a CD, bass information is the same kind of ones and zeros as the other frequencies. On a record, more low end requires wider grooves. Hence, the 12 inch single. Vinyl will inherently have less compression applied from the ME due, if nothing else, to this restriction. If all the low end is LOUD, the grooves must be deeper and wider. If the are to deep, you get playback issues. If they are to wide, you get limitations of capacity per side. Park of the low end issue, IIRC, is addressed by the RIAA curve applied by phono preamps. They are designed to boost low end at a set point, so the grooves can be cut more narrow but provide the target net end result.
I think we have begun the descent out of the loudness wars, as radio is essentially dieing to streaming. What is sad is that, with streaming we have the capability to get behind HD(24bit, 96k+) audio, but no one is doing it. The files exist(any ME worth their rate is storing HD files alongside the 44.1 files). The infrastructure and network capabilities exist(720p takes more bandwidth than HD audio). It's just not happening.

Can you help bring me to the light?
 
Of course not. Live music is the reference.

That's an obvious answer, but the truth is that anybody who's been to a live concert knows it's not true.

Mics on every instrument, meddling with the balance between tracks, and removing ambients that the ear hears, like echo: this, and more, is what can be done with post-processing, and yes, it makes it better. Better is subjective of course. One of my favorites is Queen at Wembly. But acoustically, Queen was better in studio with post-processing.
 
Who was probably the best sounding Live concerts I ever attended....Yes would be my second pick but Yes was boring to watch which overshadowed their music unfortunately. Every other listening experience out of the couple dozen or so I went to were hands down way better on vinyl, if your honest and minus out the psychedelic or sexual impaired influences which stated otherwise.....Now ask me what ones I had the most fun at sans the music.:ban:
 
So, to start, I think Jwin covered the vinyl vs cd side pretty well. The only thing I'd add is that in digitizing an analog signal, there is no way to TRULY *copy* any naturally occurring sound. No matter how much resolution, or sample rate, you have, there will always be steps in between samples of a sine wave, or even rounding off of a square wave. It's pretty similar to the difference between a film and digital picture. No matter how high the resolution of a digital picture is, you can eventually zoom in to the pixel, and the camera has to extrapolate or assume what's in between those pixels. Now, different film can have more or less information than others, i.e. Polaroid/35mm/medium format/etc, but different analog audio mediums are analogous as well. Cassette tape, 1/4", 1/2", etc. Vinyl as a physical medium, as well as tape, can actually reproduce a true analog sound/wave.
Is this actually important? Maybe.
In regards to having a recording that sounds better than the live performance? No. Can it get close? Yes! But I feel it actually depends on what that source performance is. Do you need 24b/96k recordings of electronic dance music? No. Will that sound better on a physical medium? Probably not. Now, are you trying to reproduce a full orchestra performing in a concert hall? If it's well recorded initially, I'd bet a very high quality pressing would sound very nice. Then again, so would a 24/96 recording.
Really though, there are so many other variables in the signal chain that it's hard to say that one medium is better than another.
Allll that being said, I enjoy listening to vinyl when I can, and I love to listen to "HD Audio" when available, but what do I listen to everyday? Streaming AAC files through Apple Music on my iPhone Bluetooth'd to my car stereo. 🙄
So where does that leave us?
Source quality depends on reproduction ability. 🙂
 
Can someone please help (gila!) I can't find a place for these in this rectangular room. I think i finally at least found some peace. I'm seriously getting sick of moving them around. I assume some drapes would help. The video is Chris Cornell Sirius XM fell on Black Days. One on the fireplace the other spread out. I paid 200 for one and 250 for the other. Obviously giving myself props but as people are dumping Center channels from the 90s I am picking them up like a bad magician waiting in the wings. These were designed to be used as monitors or Center Channel. That being said I like Towers and these will end up in my bedroom. That being said if the only place that works is on top of the fireplace maybe these will stay. Fwiw the bookshelves of these were used in abbey road studios for many years.

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Having one on a hard surface and in a corner (albeit a wide one) and one freestanding in the open will definitely skew your imaging.
Could you replace the fireplace with the TV?

You want them at least as far apart from each other as they are from you, if possible. But not one in the open and one in a corner, if possible.
Is that a sub on the right?

Really, just gonna have to move em til your happy.
Any reason not to place them vertically? Would that get it further from the fireplace?
 
Again, Jwin's got it.

My suggestions:
Can you get the tweeters level with each other and level with your ears?
At the very least, get the speakers on the same level, and isolated from whatever they're sitting on. That stone is gonna rattle like mad, if you can even just stick some foam between the rock and the speaker, that would help a bit.
As stated above, try to get that equilateral triangle between the speakers and your ears, and that's at least a good starting point.
Also, I agree with standing them vertically, especially if they gets the tweeters closer to ear level. Experiment with tweeters in or out, but I'd bet out sounds better.
Oh, and if at all possible, get them up to the level of the TV.
 
Thanks al and jwin. When i called b&w they said the sound dimensions were designed that way. The bookshelves came in tweeter on top in either a vertical or horizontal box. I read once i think that tweeter on top of woofer is important for design, well at least at this price point, i have seen many nicer speakers that arent designed this way. I could try but i would live in fear of kids though too. We like where tv is because it doesn't block the sliding glass doors and the fireplace is a brand new $4,000 gas insert. That is operated on and with an automatic thermostat and it is cold here right now. The other side of the room is the dining table and chairs and I assume in that corner it would be the best place. But coming in and out of the kitchen and other factors it wouldn't make sense for livability.

The speakers were on that entertainment center putting everything level but they were really close together. Didn't sound to bad i guess. Further making things difficult the TV is kind of offset the left from sitting position. I have these crappy stands that I could put them on next to the entertainment center and next to the subwoofer on the other side. Never felt spread out enough to the left though. Yep sub, it is a velodyne uld 12. I used to have a 10 inch B&W Sub in there too but I put it in my bedroom. And talking about it makes me want to go get it and put it back. The rock fireplace is really pretty well made. And I am not sure the speaker has any cabinet vibration. I will check and report back. Thanks again for your Help. Right now i am of the opinion after having many speakers in there that the better the speaker's the better the room sounds even with problems.
 
Can someone please help (gila!) I can't find a place for these in this rectangular room. I think i finally at least found some peace. I'm seriously getting sick of moving them around. I assume some drapes would help. The video is Chris Cornell Sirius XM fell on Black Days. One on the fireplace the other spread out. I paid 200 for one and 250 for the other. Obviously giving myself props but as people are dumping Center channels from the 90s I am picking them up like a bad magician waiting in the wings. These were designed to be used as monitors or Center Channel. That being said I like Towers and these will end up in my bedroom. That being said if the only place that works is on top of the fireplace maybe these will stay. Fwiw the bookshelves of these were used in abbey road studios for many years.

Tough layout, made even tougher by surrounding surfaces and traffic patterns. Tweeters at ear level of listening position is ideal, the farthest spacing possible between speakers is better for stereophonic imaging (too close together and they lose discretion).

In that situation, I'd consider ceiling mounts. Tweeter on the bottom, and pointed just outside the primary listening position.
 
Mount the TV Above the Fireplace at mantel level, then put both speakers on stands one where the TV is now and one where the lamp is left of the fire place..Move furniture to suit new entertainment layout .

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