Wyeast 3711 French Saison

Brewed up a really basic saison with this for my buddy's wedding and fermented it warmer than last time. Hopefully I'll be more impressed with it at the higher temps.

Anyone else have a rough time harvesting and washing this yeast? I had a pretty large cake out of it, but the washing didn't really leave much solid at all behind after the trub fell out.

Hey smagee - I just washed my 3rd generation of 3711 last weekend. You are right, it seems the yeast cake just does not want to form. I believe I ran into slight problems because of this. Trying to coax a little more spice out of the yeast, I purposely under pitched into a 1.065 batch. The gravity went down to 1.000 but the character left behind is a little to esthery (plus some band-aid) for my buds. It's only 10 days post pitch so I hoping the yeast cleans itself up a little over the next couple of weeks. May even dry hop (EKGs) before kegging.

Glad to see it's not just me; I can typically wash about a pint of full slurry off of these things, but this yeast netted me around a tablespoon or two. I figure I'll just have to amp it up with a starter in the future, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one .

FWIW, the batch I made with it (a rye saison) turned out *very* funky, but in a good way. However, it's carbing really slowly, as I think a lot of the yeast dropped out during the extended primary time. I'd wager yours will clean up a bit as well, but I'd give it an extra week or so on the cake just to make sure the yeast gets enough time to do so.

smagee said:

Glad to see it's not just me; I can typically wash about a pint of full slurry off of these things, but this yeast netted me around a tablespoon or two. I figure I'll just have to amp it up with a starter in the future, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one .

FWIW, the batch I made with it (a rye saison) turned out *very* funky, but in a good way. However, it's carbing really slowly, as I think a lot of the yeast dropped out during the extended primary time. I'd wager yours will clean up a bit as well, but I'd give it an extra week or so on the cake just to make sure the yeast gets enough time to do so.

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Might be carbing slowly due to selecting early flocculators during the yeast harvesting.

How did the attenuation turn out on that one? I'm curious bc I have never harvested via washing (as opposed to top cropping) for 3711 since I always thought that would selectively harvest low attenuators in low flocculating strains.

Hmm... that makes a fair bit of sense. I'll have to get back to you on it; my original post was misleading: I made this batch with a smack pack (stepped up via starter) with the intent of harvesting the yeast for future versions. Said harvested yeast remains unused for now. Attenuation with the initial batch was fine (I'll have to check when I get home, but in the vicinity of 75-80% off the top of my head--1.050 to 1.000 I believe), but I haven't brewed anything with the washed version. I'll be stepping it up via starters for future batches, so I'll try to remember to update when I actually use it.

smagee said:

Glad to see it's not just me; I can typically wash about a pint of full slurry off of these things, but this yeast netted me around a tablespoon or two. I figure I'll just have to amp it up with a starter in the future, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one .

FWIW, the batch I made with it (a rye saison) turned out *very* funky, but in a good way. However, it's carbing really slowly, as I think a lot of the yeast dropped out during the extended primary time. I'd wager yours will clean up a bit as well, but I'd give it an extra week or so on the cake just to make sure the yeast gets enough time to do so.

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You bet! I'll be leaving it on a little longer than normal. I did end up throwing in 1 oz of EKGs just to help with the aroma a bit.

I pitched a smackpack into 6g with OG 1.055, ~77 ambient temperature and nothing to keep fermentation temperature down. For two days it was bubbling like crazy in the airlock and after that it stopped completely and the krauzen had dropped. I bottled after 14 days and the gravity was stable at 1.006 for the last four days (didn't take any earlier readings).
After only four days it has more or less carbonated in the bottles already, although I think I'll let the bottles sit a bit longer in ambient to make sure they are all carbed up(70F now) before moving them to the fridge.

Kind of off topic, but traditionally if I recall correctly saisons were brewed during fall and aged until summer. So my question is, does anything interesting happen with the flavors if a saison is aged for a longer period instead of being enjoyed while fresh?

It would depend on the yeast used and the hopping rate. I brewed one in April and bottled with souring microbes. I drank half the batch and just grabbed a few bottles now. The hops have died down a little and it's more tart.

Since you bottled with souring microbes that pretty much whats expected?

In my case i hopped with 0.44 oz(damn units...) of Pacific Jade at 30, 25, 20 and 15 minutes left for an IBU(Tinseth) of 42,7, malt bill was simple with equal parts of pilsner, pale ale and vienna malt.

I more or less asked the same question in another thread here and didn't get an answer more precise than that it was still great after 1½ or so.
The reason that I ask is that my general impression of aging is that hop flavor and bitterness fade over time, and that maltiness becomes more rounded.
Since the saison character comes from the yeast I don't know how to estimate what I would expect if I leave some bottles for a year or so.

Guess I'll hide 2-3 bottles and come back in a year to spread some wisdom.

Well with a saison being dry and spicy you won't get a whole lot of malt character over time. My souring microbes did not have much to go on when I bottled. Just a few ounces of maltodextrin were added when I bottled. I'd say that after about 4 months the hops will fade enough to allow the beer to be a little more balanced. You seem to have hopped it like I hopped mine. When fresh it was a little over hopped.

Historically the saison was brewed when it was cool enough to brew. They made special batches in the cooler months and kept them in cellars through the winter. The reason the were regarded as better is the highly hopped character smoothed out during that time. Additionally many of the saison producers used mixed cultures. These cultures contained wild yeasts and some lactic acid producing bacteria, I'm sure. The beer would sour slightly over the winter which was a much desired quality in that time. I think they mention in either the book Wild Brews or Farmhouse Ales that Saison was sometimes blended with lambic.

I don't have any further questions or comments, I'd just like to say that I appreciate the input. I've been thinking of getting one or both of those books (although malt, hops and yeast have a higher priority) since my beer interest has turned to that kind of brews lately.

3711 is a BEAST!!!!
I used it a few times and the hardest challenge is not over attenuation.. This yeast never..never..never stops feeding.

Finished my first keg of 3711. The OG was 1.039. Mashed at 155*. finished at 1.001. Was great and kept tasting fresh for 2 months. Next time I'll do a high gravity (1.07) beer. This yeast will eat anything and it seems like a waste to not let it make me a strong beer with no effort.

In my experience, this yeast produces great beer young and old. The more it ages, the more yeast character comes out of it, and the malt/hops get soft and round. so far I have left these alone for over a year, and they taste great. (just different than young counterparts)

That being said, after 6 months or so this beer doesn't really get much more developed. (although I have super saison of 10 % that I'm keeping for a LONG time, just to see) I would drink half young, and cellar the other half.

Has anyone used this in a dark strong? Wyeast mentions you can appropriately use this to produce one.

I want to but I'm a tad afraid of how that great 3711 citrus quality would mesh with toasty caramel flavors, or would it be perceived as something entirely different? I'm guessing and hoping the latter, similar to Chimay blue and white, same yeast, different perceptions of yeast notes.

Any input on how this turns out with a darker caramel rich grist?

I was planing to do a dark strong very soon myself!

DannPM said:

Has anyone used this in a dark strong? Wyeast mentions you can appropriately use this to produce one.

I want to but I'm a tad afraid of how that great 3711 citrus quality would mesh with toasty caramel flavors, or would it be perceived as something entirely different? I'm guessing and hoping the latter, similar to Chimay blue and white, same yeast, different perceptions of yeast notes.

Any input on how this turns out with a darker caramel rich grist?

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Never tried it in a dark strong, but I personally think the flavor profile would be all wrong. Dark strongs are best with earthy/dark dried fruit flavors -- a bone dry citrusy dark strong wouldn't be ideal on my book. Keep it around to finish it out if it stalls for some reason, but I don't think it would be a good choice for the main yeast.

bigbeergeek said:

Never tried it in a dark strong, but I personally think the flavor profile would be all wrong. Dark strongs are best with earthy/dark dried fruit flavors -- a bone dry citrusy dark strong wouldn't be ideal on my book. Keep it around to finish it out if it stalls for some reason, but I don't think it would be a good choice for the main yeast.

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I agree.

DannPM said:

Has anyone used this in a dark strong? Wyeast mentions you can appropriately use this to produce one.

I want to but I'm a tad afraid of how that great 3711 citrus quality would mesh with toasty caramel flavors, or would it be perceived as something entirely different? I'm guessing and hoping the latter, similar to Chimay blue and white, same yeast, different perceptions of yeast notes.

Any input on how this turns out with a darker caramel rich grist?

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Hi all, I can't answer to a dark strong per se, but I have made a saison with a whole pound of caramunich instead of a 1/4 pound. It tastes almost like a dubbel.
I say go for it, the flavor will be different, but I don't think it will clash

That's good to know man, I was looking for someone who had actually had experience with it. Thank you!

Make a dark saison instead.

I'm on a mobile device so I hope this link is right, if not then google "a saison for every season" Drew is brewing quite a few different styles with saison yeast one of which is basically a strong dark. I think the key is control the fermentation temps, temps below 68° seem bring out more earthy esters and less of the citrus esters and peppery phenolics or maybe it's when the temps are higher, in the mid 70s and above the citrus esters overwhelm the earthy esters.
We shall see in a few weeks to months after I bulk age my dark strong saison.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/Saison-Part-Deux-Web.pptx

I just had a 4 month old bottle, and it's making me think of the discussion about aging beers with this yeast.
Fresh, it's less tart, more earthy, I think.

after a few months, the tartness comes out more, along with the citrus undertones, making it a very complex beer, and wonderful young and aged.

I have no one to beer talk with at the moment, so I had to post

runs4beer said:

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/Saison-Part-Deux-Web.pptx

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Great GREAT link man Thanks!

Brewed my first batch with 3711 today, ( i've been working with the 3724 now for a good 8 batches or so, and wanted to try something different),. I had a lot of left over grains and decided to just brew it up kitchen sink style, spice it decently and make it a "Christmas" saison.

5gallon

Single infusion @ 148 for 120mins
Batch Sparge @ 158 for 20mins ( split in two, 3.25 gallons each, for 20 mins each),

no mash-out.

5# Weyermann Pilsner
1#8oz Munich Malt - 10L
1# Flaked Rye
14oz Belgian Candy Sugar Amber ( homemade)
8oz Flaked Corn
8oz Wheat, Torrified
4oz Belgian Aromatic
4 Acidulated Malt
¼oz Black Patent Malt

90 min boil

Hops - .40oz Magnum 12% at 60
1oz Styrian Goldings at 15
1oz Czech Saaz at flameout

for 26IBU's.

spices were 2tblsp each bitter and sweet orange peel, 1tsp Grains of Paradise, 1tsp of Coriander, 1/4 tsp of crushed cardamon seeds @ flameout.

OG 1.051
SRM 12

Pitched the 3711, ( no starter), at 75f.


Sample tasted great. I'll post back with details as they come along.

runs4beer said:

I'm on a mobile device so I hope this link is right, if not then google "a saison for every season" Drew is brewing quite a few different styles with saison yeast one of which is basically a strong dark. I think the key is control the fermentation temps, temps below 68° seem bring out more earthy esters and less of the citrus esters and peppery phenolics or maybe it's when the temps are higher, in the mid 70s and above the citrus esters overwhelm the earthy esters.
We shall see in a few weeks to months after I bulk age my dark strong saison.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/Saison-Part-Deux-Web.pptx

Click to expand...

For some reason I am having trouble getting these files to open. The concept has peaked my interest on doing a dark saison for late winter early spring. I will be brewing my summer saison in January to be ready for June.

Try this link, find it 1/2 way down, down load the PDF, I think this was a gateway to Saison for many home brewers include me.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/free-downloads

If it doesn't take you there Google: a saison for every season, AHA

runs4beer said:

Try this link, find it 1/2 way down, down load the PDF, I think this was a gateway to Saison for many home brewers include me.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/free-downloads

If it doesn't take you there Google: a saison for every season, AHA

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This link worked and major thanks. Lot's of good articals to read through. I have already read through: "A Saison for Every Season" and picked out my next recipe.

I'm going to go with the Saison d'Hiver, I just need to pick out a yeast. I'm leaning toward 3711 again becuase I know it will attenuate from 1.080 way down to dry the beer out. Some of the other yeasts described also sound good though.

I wanted to add to the praise of this fantastic strain (that I was convinced to use on several brews, in part because of this thread...)
I can say that it also works well for mead...I brewed a "Belgeglin" (metheglin with corriander seed and bitter orange peel) that I just bottled today and I really think came out excellently. Can't wait to see how much better it is next year at Mead Day in August...
Anyhow, 3711 took this mead from 1.100 to 1.005 (12.7% ABV), and didn't miss a beat...it's definitely become my 'go-to' saison strain. I brewed my regular saison recipe with it, and loved the results, and also used it on a holiday gruit that I'm very pleased with as well...I'm thinking next year I'll probably brew a pumpkin beer and another Christmas brew recipe that I haven't done in a couple years with it.

Thanks for all the great advice in this thread! Brewed my first saison on Sunday, have it in the fermenter at 73 degrees and it is going off like a machine gun with the 3711! I was a little worried about the starter, but I just don't think I had it warm enough at first.

smagee said:

Hmm... that makes a fair bit of sense. I'll have to get back to you on it; my original post was misleading: I made this batch with a smack pack (stepped up via starter) with the intent of harvesting the yeast for future versions. Said harvested yeast remains unused for now. Attenuation with the initial batch was fine (I'll have to check when I get home, but in the vicinity of 75-80% off the top of my head--1.050 to 1.000 I believe), but I haven't brewed anything with the washed version. I'll be stepping it up via starters for future batches, so I'll try to remember to update when I actually use it.

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Well, I finally did end up using my washed versions and things worked well enough. The first saison I did turned out excellent after a few months in the bottle, and I've since used 3711 in a Wit and Tripel just for the hell of it. The latter is still settling down, while the Wit turned out to have an interesting funkiness from the change; I probably won't do it again, but it was worth trying out and it's definitely drinkable.

I'll be dropping this one into another experiment in a month or two, almost a hoppy dark saison, I think. I love this yeast.

I have now brewed my third saison with this strain and the second two were from the washed yeast from the first saison last year. The Black Saison turned out great although a little sweet for my taste but still good. I brewed my own summer saison again and again got great results with a FG of 1.004. I'm looking forward to seeing if the flavor profile changes much between the two summer saisons. I'll be dry hopping the summer saison on Sunday.

I'm about to use some of this yeast for a Belgian Dark Strong as suggested by the author of this thread. Any suggestions on fermentation temp schedule? I am planning to mash a little high because this yeast is a beast and I've been getting really good attenuation lately.

tennesseean_87 said:

I'm about to use some of this yeast for a Belgian Dark Strong as suggested by the author of this thread. Any suggestions on fermentation temp schedule? I am planning to mash a little high because this yeast is a beast and I've been getting really good attenuation lately.

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I have made three saisons with this yeast. The first I brewed in the summer and let the temp run wild. I would say it fermented between 85 and 90 degrees. The black saison I controlled temps at 75 and the second summer saison I controlled at 80. By far the first saison was the best. The funk and pepperiness that I expected came out. The latter two are good beers just not great. In fact the black saison is too sweet for my taste.

wow, and I find this yeast tastes better at lower temps- around 70-75. It tends to get phenolic and fusely at 80+, in my experience.

I agree. Used it in a Bier Du Guarde with a cool fermentation temp and it was just perfect. That wonderful earthy-slightly-funky flavor with a bit of spice, but not at the saison level.

Definitely mash high. I think it is too dry on its own, but that's just me.

Agreed with the high ferm temp creating fusels. 70's are good. Start cool, let rise into the upper temps. If you do that, you can really let it get up there and you'll get a neat product.

Maybe think about a yeast mixture? That can be fun with those saison yeasts.

I like to mix Belgian and French saison.

Start with 3724 (belgian saison) at 65, let it go for a couple days, then pitch active 3711.

But, 3711 alone can make the smoothest saison- if you are going for that.