boiling with extract

If you are going to go all grain with a little extract, most people add that extract about 15 mins from the end of the boil. Also, the point of boiling the wort for an hour or whatever is for the hops.

Why not do an extract where you boil 5 gallons of water for 60 mins with hops and just add the extract for the last 15 mins?

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mbeattie said:

Why not do an extract where you boil 5 gallons of water for 60 mins with hops and just add the extract for the last 15 mins?

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I'm not sure if this will work as well. There are reactions happening between the protein in the wort and the alpha acids of the hops that affect the flavor. But I heard of recipes that call for the late addition of some of the extract in order to prevent excessive darkening of the wort.

Kai

The extreme case is an extract no-boil kit. That's where I started and I'll never do it again. A little like instant oatmeal, you have no control over the end product. i've always had my best results with adding the extract at the beginning.

mbeattie said:

Why not do an extract where you boil 5 gallons of water for 60 mins with hops and just add the extract for the last 15 mins?

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This will only work with sweet wort from steeping, mini-mash or full mash. Your hop extract efficiency will suffer with water only.

Wild

wild said:

This will only work with sweet wort from steeping, mini-mash or full mash. Your hop extract efficiency will suffer with water only.

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I thought hop utilization went up when SG goes down? Shouldn't you get the maximum efficiency when boiling in plain water?

El Pistolero said:

I thought hop utilization went up when SG goes down? Shouldn't you get the maximum efficiency when boiling in plain water?

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When hops are added to wort and boiled the pH is around 5.2 and there is protein present to precipitate much of the polyphenols extracted from the hop leaf. Boiling time is important and most beers that have hop aroma use late additions. During the boil, hop acids undergo numerous chemical changes and the resultant mix has a profound influence on beer bitterness and the quality of bitterness. When the pH of wort boiling is increased by adding alkaline buffers, hop utilization increases but bitterness is reportedly unpleasant. If you boiled hops in water as opposed to wort, the pH would be higher and the flavor would lack.

Hope that helps,
Wild

So you're saying that all the people who suggest making hop tea to correct there bitterness problems are just wasting there time?

And what about the hops utilization tables that clearly show utilization going down as specific gravity goes up?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I understand your point about PH, but what you're saying seems to contradict much of what I've read on the subject.

El Pistolero said:

So you're saying that all the people who suggest making hop tea to correct there bitterness problems are just wasting there time?

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I've only worked with hop tea for aroma additions, never to fix bitterness or flavor problems. But if a calculated amount of wort was boiled for 45-60 minutes along with the hops needed to increase the IBUs then added to primary or even secondary, then I don't see why that wouldn't work.

El Pistolero said:

And what about the hops utilization tables that clearly show utilization going down as specific gravity goes up?

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Doesn't the specific gravity increase in proportion with your boil time?

El Pistolero said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I understand your point about PH, but what you're saying seems to contradict much of what I've read on the subject.

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I'm not taking offense to any of this. I like to learn new things no matter how its brought to me. Do you have any articles that note using hop tea for bitterness or flavor?

Wild

El Pistolero said:

but what you're saying seems to contradict much of what I've read on the subject.

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I agree. The more I search, the more contradiction in both directions are found. I'm seeing NB saying one thing and BYO saying something else. I guess this means its time for some experiments.

Wild