I have a quad I am planning on bottling soon, and I want to carbonate it with champagne yeast. Should I use one packet, less, or more? Also, how would I mix it with the beer? I was thinking of boiling my water/priming sugar solution, cooling it to 80 degrees, putting it in the bottling bucket, and mixing in the yeast before racking the beer in with it. Sound good, or is there a better or easier way?
best method for carbing with champagne yeast
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a10t2
Well-Known Member
I would rehydrate it following the manufacturer's directions and mix it into the bottling bucket at the same time as the priming sugar solution.
1-2 g of yeast per 5 gal should be enough. The type of yeast doesn't really matter either, so if you have something other than champagne yeast around, use that.
1-2 g of yeast per 5 gal should be enough. The type of yeast doesn't really matter either, so if you have something other than champagne yeast around, use that.
Be careful when using champagne yeast for carbing bottles, it can really dry out a brew and in turn produce a case or two of grenades...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Germelli1
Well-Known Member
I would pitch it a few days or a week before bottling. That way it has a chance to attenuate further than the original strain if it wants to.
I am not speaking from experience, I would just be worried about losing a lot of a big beer to bottle bombs!
I am not speaking from experience, I would just be worried about losing a lot of a big beer to bottle bombs!
a10t2
Well-Known Member
Only if the original strain stalled out though. And in that case you'd have grenades no matter what yeast you used to condition.
With all respect, that's not absolute. All yeasts have differing attenuation capabilities, and champagne yeast is generally considered to be one of the most aggressive in that respect. So primary with a typical yeast could reach completion that would be considered satisfactory performance, but champagne yeast could easily drive the gravity down considerably. If done in glass, "exciting" things could happen.
Germelli1 provided the safe and sane approach...
Cheers!
a10t2
Well-Known Member
Granted, but that's the definition of the original strain having stalled out. If the original pitch of yeast doesn't get down to the attenuation limit of the wort, there will be a problem no matter what yeast is used for bottle conditioning.
Isn't champagne yeast supposed to be unable to ferment complex sugars? I got over 90% attenuation on this beer, I really am not worried about bottle bombs. I'm using Belgian bottles, too, so they ain't gonna explode.
I don't want to mix boiling hot priming sugar solution with proofed yeast. I could cool the sugar solution, but if I'm doing that, why not proof the yeast in the sugar solution? I know normally you aren't supposed to do this because it preps the yeast to work on sucrose or dextrose, but that's exactly what it is going to do. In any case, I don't need this yeast to do much, I think I am gonna go with it unless someone can give me a good reason not to.
I don't want to mix boiling hot priming sugar solution with proofed yeast. I could cool the sugar solution, but if I'm doing that, why not proof the yeast in the sugar solution? I know normally you aren't supposed to do this because it preps the yeast to work on sucrose or dextrose, but that's exactly what it is going to do. In any case, I don't need this yeast to do much, I think I am gonna go with it unless someone can give me a good reason not to.
Question then: Is there a reason you're using champagne yeast, and not the yeast that you used during fermentation? Meaning that did the beer age for such a significant time that all the yeast has dropped out and that you feel the need to add additional yeast to carbonate? And if so, why not the original type of yeast?
As previously mentioned the second set of yeasts could cause some differences in the expected flavor and body of the beer, and at worst, could ferment anything left in the beer, should there have been residual sugars. Usually, a second set of yeast during bottling process is used to add a complexity of flavor in some way (so I've heard) but that champagne yeast won't add to that (and at worst could remove some).
What was the OG/FG?
But if for example, your fg is 0.90, there are absolutely no residual sugars, then sure, use champagne yeast exactly as mentioned. I've done it for some things that I've fermented using EC-1118. (though I really didn't need to at the time)
As previously mentioned the second set of yeasts could cause some differences in the expected flavor and body of the beer, and at worst, could ferment anything left in the beer, should there have been residual sugars. Usually, a second set of yeast during bottling process is used to add a complexity of flavor in some way (so I've heard) but that champagne yeast won't add to that (and at worst could remove some).
What was the OG/FG?
But if for example, your fg is 0.90, there are absolutely no residual sugars, then sure, use champagne yeast exactly as mentioned. I've done it for some things that I've fermented using EC-1118. (though I really didn't need to at the time)
Interesting edit you made there - removing the whole counterpoint to your theory.
Whatever, no point in continuing...
a10t2
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I follow. I didn't edit either post. At any rate, I think there is a point in continuing, because disseminating accurate information can only make us all better brewers in the long run.
Wort is composed of various sugars in solution. Some of those sugars are fermentable and some are not - depending on the species of yeast used for fermentation. Typically Saccharomyces can ferment roughly 60% of the sugars in a wort, yielding an apparent attenuation of 75%. If for whatever reason the first yeast used only attenuated 50% (a stalled fermentation), then in that hypothetical wort there are 10% of the sugars remaining which could be fermented by another beer yeast during secondary fermentation or bottle conditioning. In that case, grenades would result.
Even if the first yeast attenuated the full 60%, if the brewer then pitches something like Brettanomyces, which is capable of fermenting sugars Saccharomyces cannot, additional attenuation could be generated. This is not a concern when pitching additional Saccharomyces, which is what rexbanner was asking about. In fact, most wine yeasts can't even ferment all the sugars that beer yeasts can, since they can't metabolize trisaccharides like maltotriose.
That's what I had heard about wine yeast. The main reason I want to do this is I'd rather not spend 7 bucks on a beer yeast for a beer that is around 11% alcohol, that's already in the upper limit for 530. I'd rather just spend a buck on a packet of lalvin and call it a day. I'm not worried about flavor contributions because it's a neutral yeast and I already got loads of flavor from the 530.
I just want to figure this out because I've been making lots of high gravity Belgians lately and I don't want to have to buy fresh vials just to carb.
Obviously I was referring to your selective quoting.
My point was/is all brewers yeast have differing attenuation capabilities, which should be considered when using one type for fermentation and another for carbonation in capped glass. You don't need a "stall" scenario, nor an infection, into the cycle - to get into trouble.
There are many ale yeasts that are modestly attenuative, are highly flocculative, and don't have a tolerance to higher alcohol levels. On the other hand, other ale yeast - and champagne yeasts in general - can tolerate high alcohol levels, flocculate poorly, and attenuate very well indeed.
One could run their primary using, for an example, WLP041, have it settle out rather quickly and apparently finish at 65% attenuation, then bottle using WLP715 (which is recommended for high SG barley brews, and for good reason). That combination could provide an "exciting" conclusion - yet there would be nothing out of bounds for either yeast performance...
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