I think I'm done with WYeast

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GreenDragon

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The very first batch I ever made I made with WYeast and had to repitch several days later due to zero activity. I thought I pitched at too high of a temp and it was my fault, now I'm not so sure.

My second batch I used dry yeast, everything worked fine. Had a very successful and "explosive" fermentation period.

Starting my third batch tomorrow so I did my starter this morning. Figured I try a WYeast again. This time I did everything spot on, temps, ratio, everything. It's been about 7 hours now and I have zero activity going on in my starter!

The only thing I can figure is the yeast is dead before I even pitch it. I'm in Wichita, KS and the LHBS's WYeast selection sucks (they only carry 3 types). Not only that but ALL the wheat ones were dated Jan 18th, 2011. It should be good for 90 days according to the web site.. but dunno.

Think it's safe to use the non-refrigerated dry yeast that came in my coopers wheat kit?
 
I don't think you've given the starter enough time before saying it's not working! Give it up to 72 hours before worrying.

A starter usually ferments out in a day or two, but since it's a relatively small amount of fermentation, you may miss all the signs of it. You don't tend to get much of a krausen with a small starter.

I assume your starter's OG was about 1.040?

A one-day lead for a starter is cutting it close, but at least it's a bit of a start. I'd suggest making the starter at least two days before brewing, but I usually make a fairly large starter and start about 3-4 days ahead.
 
Ya, usually starters are fast. I'd expect at least something at 7 hours. I'd bet it's due to bad handling on the part of your LHBS or somewhere in shipping. I've never gotten Wyeast from my LHBS older than 3 weeks and usually it's within 2 weeks. How does the yeast smell before you pitched in either case? I'm not sure on the dry yeast, but if it's not too old and never got too hot it's probably OK.
 
Are you using a stir-plate or doing any agitation? When I use a stirplate, I have always seen some amount of krausen. Even without a stirplate I have always seen some visible signs of fermentation within 7 hours, but I will qualify that with the fact that I've only dealt with about 5 Wyeast strains, 1007, 1968, 1762, 3787, 2633. I know other more experienced brewers like Yoop have noted starters with little or no visible signs of fermentation. Maybe yours is one of those.
 
find one that will ship outside your area with a cold-pack. Due to what I suspect is low turnover at the LHBS, i have started buying from one in Austin that will ship my yeast with a cold pack. Since I'm about 3 hours away, i get it the next day and have never had any issue with Wyeast products... prefer their smackpack as I can verify the viability before opening the package.
 
What are you meaning by "activity?" if you are going by airlock and not a hydrometer reading, especially one after 72 hours than how can you be pronouncing your yeast dead, especially if you've made a starter. If you are purely going by airlock then you pretty much are jumping the gun on nothing. I find it unlikely that your yeasts are all bad....
 
When I use a fresh/new smack pack (Activator pack) it's typically less than two weeks old. If the LHBS you're getting it from isn't storing it properly, or they don't get them sent overnight, then they're setting you up for failure before you even start.

As mentioned, get the next batch of yeast from a source that will overnight it to you, with a freezer pack so that it's still cold when it arrives.

I typically plan to have my starters going 1-2 days before the planned brew day. I also plan another day 'buffer' so that I don't need to worry about the starter not taking off as expected, or not finishing in time.

If that LHBS has great selection on everything else, see if they'll special order you yeast. The LHBS I visit places their yeast order on either Sunday or Monday. So if I tell them a week before my brew day, they'll have that yeast on hand for me. It arrives on Thursday, and is dated from just a few days prior. 100% success with all yeast I've gotten from them.
 
I'm still in the process of assembling my magnetic stirrer so I've just been shaking it every other hour or so. I won't give up all hope until tomorrow after church. If there are still no signs around noon tomorrow I may re-pitch that dry yeast into it just for giggles. It's either that or wait a few days on mail, which would put me one weekend behind.

Seen a few threads on the Coopers Wheat kit on here... anyone ever used the yeast that comes with the kit?
 
As much as I like the convinience of dry yeast, I find that liquid yeast make a superior beer regarding my taste. But the key is to smack the pack and let it swell, make a starter days ahead of brewday, and for me when doing large volume starters for lagers, decant the spent wort before pitching.
I don't think I have ever had a liquid yeast fail me.
 
I use wyeast almost exclusively and I have never had a problem. As far as the starter goes if you did everything right then I'm sure it will be fine. I built up a starter from a wyeast pack with an October date on it the other day (been in my fridge not the HBS). It's doing great and is ready to go to work tomorrow.
 
Sorry to say, but I think you must be doing something wrong if, "first batch I ever made I made with Wyeast and had to repitch several days later due to zero activity". Zero activity? Hard to mess up enough to have that, like obviously boiling the yeast would do that or having 10 month old yeast might.

I don't know about starters as I've yet to make one even though I have a yeast starter flask etc. But when I pitch Wyeast into my 5 gallon batches I usually don't see anything going on for hours, but next morning I wake up and check and it's bubbling away like crazy.

Don't throw in the towel yet or you'll be severely limiting yourself in yeast choices. From now on maybe give a little more time in advance for the yeast to start. Without knowing every single detail in your process it's hard to tell what might be going wrong.


Rev.
 
We carry only Wyeast for liquid at my work. We always make sure to rotate stock and only order what we know will sell. With that in mind I have never had anything but luck. Always puffs, ferments, and tastes the way it should and any problem I've had I could trace back to something I did. And I'm not just saying that, I felt this way way before I started working there. I'd give 'em another chance.
 
You never mention activating the smack pack. You need to do that before pitching directly or using in a starter. That would tell you how viable the yeast is before opening.
 
I've used both Wyeast and a couple different dry yeasts, I tend to get more of an initial vigorous ferment with the dry yeasts but have been happier with Wyeast in terms of flavors. I had a Wyeast hefe smack pack in my fridge for over 6 months because I just never got around to brewing something for that one. I finally brewed a dunkelweizen and used that yeast with a starter, it worked awesome!

Don't blame it on Wyeast, lots of success with it out there. If you think it's a supplier issue maybe get it shipped with a cold pack like others have suggested. Otherwise you'll need to keep working on your process, lots of good advice here so far.
 
I had a month old Thames Valley Wyeast pack that started fermenting @ 18hrs and attenuated very well. I like smack packs alot and will continue to use them in the future.
 
I am a fairly new brewer but have used Wyeast a few times and it worked perfectly. I used 3 different strains with no problems.

I like dry yeast and use it (Us-05) for my pale ales, but for other beers that the yeast makes a big difference in the flavor I Use Wyeast.
 
I have used white labs, wyeast and various dry yeast through the years. Now I pretty much stick with dry unless I need a strain I cannot get dry. The others work just fine, but they are more expensive and just a PITA to deal with starters and what not. I use dry about 90% of the time these days.
 
As with all things brewing patience is key. Dry yeast is great and I use it a lot, but liquid is essential if you want to brew diverse styles. I use wyeast a ton and it's not uncommon for a smack pack to sit in my fridge for a couple months for one reason or another and I've never had a problem getting them going. It might be tough to use this as a gauge if you don't have a lot of experience, but I can usually tell if my starter has fermented out in the night by what the sediment looks like. If your starter is done, you should have a nice clean-looking layer of fresh yeast on the cake.
 
Well I just checked it and this one is officially a dud. I may have to order my Wyeast off the web like someone suggested. I'm in KS so it's normally only 2 day shipping from TX.
 
I used wyeast that I bought online . It was summer time and it got here about three days later but sat on the front porch about 100 degrees for hours . Was swelled up . I put it in the fridge and used it a few days later . It swelled up again which I had not expected it to do . It worked okay but the stuff is so slow to ferment I would consider it to be crap .
No I for some reason bought a pack from local store . I had it for a few months in fridge . I made a batch of dark ale yesterday . Smacked the pack and let it sit about 8 hours and it barley swelled at all . Pitched it anyway and today , no fermentation , no activity at all . I have some in a bottle to observe.
Just in case anyone uses plastic buckets . The lids do not seal up after a couple uses sometimes . Use good duct tape to seal it off and sometimes you will find that fermentation is going on .
Well off to my local brew pub at noon to ask them if they will sell me some yeast . If not I am going to go to the wine vinyard and get some wine yeast and use that.
No more Wyeast for me . Never had a problem with dry and it works in 4 days not a week or more .
 
I used wyeast that I bought online . It was summer time and it got here about three days later but sat on the front porch about 100 degrees for hours . Was swelled up . I put it in the fridge and used it a few days later . It swelled up again which I had not expected it to do . It worked okay but the stuff is so slow to ferment I would consider it to be crap .
No I for some reason bought a pack from local store . I had it for a few months in fridge . I made a batch of dark ale yesterday . Smacked the pack and let it sit about 8 hours and it barley swelled at all . Pitched it anyway and today , no fermentation , no activity at all . I have some in a bottle to observe.
Just in case anyone uses plastic buckets . The lids do not seal up after a couple uses sometimes . Use good duct tape to seal it off and sometimes you will find that fermentation is going on .
Well off to my local brew pub at noon to ask them if they will sell me some yeast . If not I am going to go to the wine vinyard and get some wine yeast and use that.
No more Wyeast for me . Never had a problem with dry and it works in 4 days not a week or more .

So you pitched the yeast, that was hanging out in your fridge for a couple of months, without making a starter and you've only waited <24 hours and are concerned about not seeing activity??? Have you NOT read about using liquid yeast yet?? You've done pretty much everything you're NOT supposed to do. You've NOT waited long enough (can take up to 72 hours to show sign), didn't make a starter with an older pack of yeast, and probably didn't oxygenate all that much (if at all). Give it another 2 days (72 hours from pitch) before you think it's a dud.

I typically have activity (as in hold onto your hats kiddies, you in for a BUMPY RIDE!!) in under 12 hours, BUT I do things right. I make starters for the batches (using yeastcalc.com to figure out what sizes to make), I oxygenate with pure O2, and I don't worry about things. I also use a temperature sensor to KNOW what's going on inside my fermenting vessel. Since airlocks (especially in buckets) are almost worthless as fermentation indicators.

Give it more time to come out of it's lag phase and then decide. Give it the full 72 hours before you go pitching different yeast in...
 
I used wyeast that I bought online . It was summer time and it got here about three days later but sat on the front porch about 100 degrees for hours . Was swelled up . I put it in the fridge and used it a few days later . It swelled up again which I had not expected it to do . It worked okay but the stuff is so slow to ferment I would consider it to be crap .
No I for some reason bought a pack from local store . I had it for a few months in fridge . I made a batch of dark ale yesterday . Smacked the pack and let it sit about 8 hours and it barley swelled at all . Pitched it anyway and today , no fermentation , no activity at all . I have some in a bottle to observe.
Just in case anyone uses plastic buckets . The lids do not seal up after a couple uses sometimes . Use good duct tape to seal it off and sometimes you will find that fermentation is going on .
Well off to my local brew pub at noon to ask them if they will sell me some yeast . If not I am going to go to the wine vinyard and get some wine yeast and use that.
No more Wyeast for me . Never had a problem with dry and it works in 4 days not a week or more .

I think you should have used a starter,especially with the red-flags you got. Ive only ever read,that (especially with 5 gallon batches), that its recommended to make a starter pretty much every time anyway if its over 1.05 OG using liquid yeasts. Even with a lower gravity,a pitching calc probably would recommend using 1.5-2 packs anyway, especially with an older date on it.:mug: On ones like that I would add yeast energizer and oxygenate very well at least. Poor yeast health/viability may show signs in the finished beer,but will still be beer and how good it is? is your own personal interpetation of it.
 
Golddiggie ; Yep I just tossed it in . I do think it was dead any way as the pack just would not swell up . I just do not think I need any yeast that has to be grown in a starter for how ever long that takes i forget , and then may take 72 hours to get going . I use dry yeast and simply rehydrate it for 15 minutes and toss it in wort that I either stir by hand or use a aerator to oxygenate and it gets going in a matter of hours usually and sometimes just goes plum nuts for some reason , must be the type of beer.
I went ahead and tossed in a pack of rehydrated quick rise bread yeast . it started up bubbling in about 5 hours . Hey what the heck people ask about that stuff all over and no one has a good answer so I may as well test it out and see how it goes .

Everyone have a nice Xmas or what ever you celebrate or if not then just have a great day
 
I have always had great luck with wyeast. I get them from northern brewer and have them shipped all the way to Texas.
 
Golddiggie ; Yep I just tossed it in . I do think it was dead any way as the pack just would not swell up . I just do not think I need any yeast that has to be grown in a starter for how ever long that takes i forget , and then may take 72 hours to get going . I use dry yeast and simply rehydrate it for 15 minutes and toss it in wort that I either stir by hand or use a aerator to oxygenate and it gets going in a matter of hours usually and sometimes just goes plum nuts for some reason , must be the type of beer.
I went ahead and tossed in a pack of rehydrated quick rise bread yeast . it started up bubbling in about 5 hours . Hey what the heck people ask about that stuff all over and no one has a good answer so I may as well test it out and see how it goes .

Everyone have a nice Xmas or what ever you celebrate or if not then just have a great day

I would have tossed the batch out before using BREAD yeast in it. Nasty... I can't see this ending well...

As for the Wyeast, you did everything wrong and blame the yeast for not getting going after a short amount of time... IMO/IME, 100% brewer error across the board. Even if you pitch an older pack, with a longer lag phase, without a starter, 98% of the time, it WILL get going. Using a starter means you WON'T have the lag time in fermenter. I've done starters with 10+ month old yeast that took off like a rocket in under 8 hours from pitching.

IMO, Wyeast (and White Labs) are better off without you using their products. :eek: :p
 
I bought 4 packs of Wyeast from my LHBS and they were all dead. No swelling of any of the packs. Pitched 2 of them anyway and after 3 days had zero activity. Bought 2 more and pitched them even though they didn't swell either. No activity after 3 days. I wondered if I had done something wrong so I pitched a dry yeast pack just to see. It went crazy after about 24 hours. My guess is that the Wyeast pack simply got too hot in transit to the LBHS since I live in Texas.

That batch that now has 5 packs of yeast in it is still sitting in my carboy after about 8 weeks. I just cant bring myself to dump it and am considering kegging it just to see how it turned out. No expecting good beer... just curious.

I was just pitching 2 packs of Wyeast instead of making a starter.

I now buy my Wyeast online with 'cold packs' and have not had a problem that way.

Lesson learned. I will always buy my Wyeast online and pay the extra 99 cents for a 'cold pack' and I will always make a starter just to be sure I have viable yeast to pitch. Plus it saves me the cost of an extra yeast pack.
 
I just do not think I need any yeast that has to be grown in a starter
I went ahead and tossed in a pack of rehydrated quick rise bread yeast .
Just a friendly suggestion here. Do some research on yeast. More specifically, yeast for brewing. Yeast is kinda important in beer making and the two statements i quoted show a bit of ignorance on the matter.

My experience with wyeast has been positive. I've only ordered online and never had a pack fail. That includes a pack that was 11 months old, which showed zero "signs" of fermentation till two days after i made a starter. It showed tiny co2 bubbles for two days then stopped. My trusty hydrometer told me the starter was fully fermented.

Throwing out a pack that didnt explode all over the ceiling is silly. Just as in a 5 gallon batch if wort, only your hydrometer (or refractometer) will tell you if its done.
 
I haven't had any probes either. The first time I used it I didn't read the ihstructions, opened the yeast and dumped it in the fermenters. Even then it worked, took it forever to start. I was about to toss it out thinking I'd ruined a batch of beer but I noticed a few bubbles so decided to give it another day or two. Three days later krausen everywhere.
 
Before I got my stirplate, when I made starters they would show no visible signs of fermentation unless I picked it up and swirled the container. Then they would fiz up a bit as they released CO2. The only other way to tell was by watching the collection of yeast in the bottom grow over the 36 hours.
 
I would have tossed the batch out before using BREAD yeast in it. Nasty... I can't see this ending well...

As for the Wyeast, you did everything wrong and blame the yeast for not getting going after a short amount of time... IMO/IME, 100% brewer error across the board. Even if you pitch an older pack, with a longer lag phase, without a starter, 98% of the time, it WILL get going. Using a starter means you WON'T have the lag time in fermenter. I've done starters with 10+ month old yeast that took off like a rocket in under 8 hours from pitching.

IMO, Wyeast (and White Labs) are better off without you using their products. :eek: :p

this yeast was old . I think the recommended time is 6 months and this was dated August . When it did not swell I should have tossed it but there was no where to get yeast and I ran out of dry.
i tried a starter one time and it did nothing but it was a simple one i think . All the guy said was to put the yeast in X amount of water with X amount of DME and let it sit which seemed to be a waste of time . I just do not have the patience or the time to make proper starters . I prefer the dry and rehydrate method .
Would be interesting to know why it is that liquid yeast takes 3 days with no starter and dry does not .
 
Would be interesting to know why it is that liquid yeast takes 3 days with no starter and dry does not .

It doesn't always take three days with liquid! That would be an extreme case. But the answer is that it has to do with cell counts.

Liquid yeast, at best, has 100 billion cells. If the yeast pack is older, the less viable yeast cells you'll have.

Dry yeast is made such that there are far more yeast cells in one 10 gram package.

That's the only difference. So, use more packages of liquid yeast for beers over 1.040 OG, or make a starter.

Making a starter is simple. Use 100 grams of DME in 1 liter of water. Boil it. Cool it. Pour it into a sanitized jug. Add the yeast. Cover with sanitized foil. Shake it when you think about it. Two days later, double the yeast! It's ridiculously simple.

Optimum pitching rates are important for the best beer. You can make beer with no starter, and poor quality yeast. But you can't make great beer with poor pitching rates and/or poor quality yeast.

Dry yeast is great, but only comes in a few strains. For specialty beers, especially good English beers or German lagers, the best yeast strain choice is often liquid yeast.
 
Funny thing is I have used liquid a year past its prime but I always make starters. Even with the liquid being a year out, it always built up after a few days. If you keep it nice and cold I think liquid could be revived a couple years out. Don't know for sure but I have had good luck getting it going again. If it is fresh, there should not be any problem as long as you do starter first. I alway get mine going 4 days in advance.
 
Yeast is yeast is yeast. Treat it wrong and you will not have good results.

Old yeast can still be used if a starter is used. I have done a brew with a Wyeast that was 2 months past the use by date.

I also freeze yeast using just 5ml of yeast and have kept it for more than 6 months then made a sucsessful starter.
 
this yeast was old . I think the recommended time is 6 months and this was dated August . When it did not swell I should have tossed it but there was no where to get yeast and I ran out of dry.
i tried a starter one time and it did nothing but it was a simple one i think . All the guy said was to put the yeast in X amount of water with X amount of DME and let it sit which seemed to be a waste of time . I just do not have the patience or the time to make proper starters . I prefer the dry and rehydrate method .
Would be interesting to know why it is that liquid yeast takes 3 days with no starter and dry does not .

Liquid and dry yeast act differently due to how they're stored/sold. Liquid is a more fragile form than dry. Which is why you handle it differently. Thinking this should not be the case is just being ignorant (or worse).

As I've stated, I've used 10 MONTH old liquid yeast already. With making a stepped starter and had it take off (like a rocket) in under 8 hours. It's called proper yeast handling/wrangling. Learn it and your brews will come out even better than they do now.

Your ignorance about starters is also rather epic IMO. They're super easy to make and give you an ass-ton more yeast than a pack of dry ever could. I can take a single packet of 10 month old yeast, put it on my stir place, do a couple of stepped starters (stupid easy IME) and have 600 BILLION yeast cells to pitch. I get to use the yeast I want, getting the FLAVORS I want from it, without any issue/worry.

Keep brewing as you are, but blaming the yeast manufacturer for your ignorance is like the anti-gun nuts blaming the firearms industry for acts of crazy people. :eek: :D Yeah, I went there. :p

BTW, I have a couple of packs of Wyeast from Sept. 2011 that I'll be making starters for (to see how they are). If the first starter step does something, I'll continue on and use them. If not, well, it didn't cost me all that much to find out. Plus, it means I won't need to purchase another pack of yeast. I might even freeze the slurry to use later. :D
 
yeah I've never had an issue with Wyeast. make sure to at the very least give it the full 3 hours at room temp after you smack it.
 
I get to use the yeast I want, getting the FLAVORS I want from it, without any issue/worry.

I think that is the best reason for selecting liquid over dry. I only use dry in a pinch because with the number of flavor profiles from dry is not that diverse unless you are drinking the same thing all the time. Liquid gives you a special edge especially when creating wits or ester y Belgian beers.

If you don't want to buy DME for starters then make a starter batch and can or freeze it. I use 2 liter bottle and make a wort that is 1.035 to 1.040 and put it the freezer. I always plan my beers in advance anyway so a week before I am ready, I put a 2 liter in the fridge and let it thaw a couple days. Boil it and make my starter 4 days out and ready to pitch the day of the brew. If something does go worn then I will try to figure out the closest dry yeast.

One thing to take away is learn what happened and don't discount anything. If you are dedicated to improving your process then find out what happened and fix it. You will thank yourself later.

Oh almost forgot. I believe the reason dry yeast seems quicker is because of the cell count. You can kill a lot of them off though if you don't reconstitute it correctly and try to do a direct pitch. If you make a starter correctly and pitch liquid in to the starter, you can get good cell counts that way. Stir plates just amplify the counts on liquid. Also equalize the temps too. Pitching warm yeast in to cold wort can be bad.

Sorry for basically repeating you Yooper. I did not read back up the chain.
 
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