Black Patent

I've got a few pounds of black patent that I want to use in some beers that I want to be very dark but not roasty. I plan to use some dark crystal & carafa III too, but does anyone have a guideline on what percentage of black patent you can use in a recipe before it starts affecting taste?

few pounds, that should last you quite a few brews. Try half a pound tops per 5 gallon batch, especially if you are going to be using some of those other roasty malts.

I only use .25 lbs at a time, its some potent stuff, and thats in a Porter

If you want dark but not roasty then I'd probably avoid black patent altogether and stick to carafa.

To keep the roast flavor down I'd go no more than 0.25 lb in a 5 gal brew and make up the rest of the dark color with Carafa Special or chocolate malt

+1 on the "less black patent". It's powerful stuff.

cool--I'll start with 3oz and see how it tastes.

A few pounds of black patent would be a lifetime supply for me. Actually, a quarter pound would be a lifetime supply for me, as I don't touch the stuff.

Now, I think Charile goes through a few pounds of black patent for breakfast.


TL

hey TexLaw--what is it about the stuff that you don't like? I've never used it before but I've read that it can be used to darken color without affecting taste as much as roasted barley or chocolate malt.

I'm just curious because I'd like to know what I'm getting in to.

I'm with TexLaw on this one- I can taste even minute amounts of it, and I don't like it at all. It tastes burnt to me, and a little smokey and astringent too. Kind of like burnt, boiled coffee, I think.

I prefer carafa for dark color and some flavor without the harshness.

I personally wouldn't use it even in small quantities to add colour to a brew. It has such a strong, distinctive flavour that even in small amounts that it would be detectable. Roasted barley has worked the best for me in that regard, you need too much chocolate to get the same colour (so you end up tasting it more).

A few decent porters will use up a bunch of that, but 2lbs will last you quite a while even with those.

its got a very distinct flavor for sure. i like a half pound in a porter, but id imagine even a 1/4 pound would work. I dont think there's a real substitute for black patent though - when i last had a porter with no black patent but roasted barley instead it tasted like a stout, or what id imagine a "stout porter" tasted like when those were more common.

Speaking from a little bit of experience... Never more than 1/2 lb. period.

1/2 (8 oz.) pound for an Imperial Stout
1/3 (5 1/3 oz.) pound for a regular stout or porter
1/4 (4 oz.) pound for a lighter stout or porter
1/8 (2 oz.) pound for color and a little roasty flavor.
and 1 oz. to bend the flavor and add a little color

Roasted Barley is not supposed to be in a Porter. Black Patent is the grain that has the Porter flavor. Black Patent and Roasted barley together and you have a stout. More Roasted Barley than Black Patent and you have a dry stout.

Grain bill for the perfect stout: 1/3 Roasted Barley, 1/3 pound Black Patent, 1/3 pound Chocolate, and 1 pound of 60L. Leave the Black patent alone but if you want it drier increase the Roasted Barley to 1/2 pound. If you want it more chocolatey increase the chocolate to 1/2 pound.
Forrest

AHS FTW! (this my official first use of that internet messageboard acronym)

maltMonkey said:

hey TexLaw--what is it about the stuff that you don't like?

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All the others said everything I would. It tastes burnt and acrid, and I can detect even a little of it. I imagine Forrest is dead on about adding no more than an ounce to a five gallon batch if you want to darken the color a bit.

Just for a little perspective, let me give you the brief history of black, a.k.a., "patent" malt. Once upon a time, there was no pale malt, only "brown" malt. It looked brown, and it made brown beer. The more malt you put in the beer, the browner it got. Of course, the more malt you put in, the stronger the beer got, too, so folks associated color with beer strength. The darker the beer was, the stronger it was. That perception exists even today.

The problem was that the malt was kilned over coke, coal, straw, wood, or whatever else the maltster might find to burn and make heat. The smoke from those fuels also flavored the malt and, in many cases, the flavor was less than desireable. Coke wasn't too bad. Straw was okay. Wood could be okay, depending on the wood. You can just imagine how the other stuff might taste. In any case, though, folks were looking for a beer that was not so smoky.

So, one day, some smart apple invented a smokeless kiln. Everyone rejoiced. That smokeless kiln faciliated pale malt, which came soon after. Brewers rejoiced with pale malt as it had greater diastatic power (i.e., more efficient), and the drinkers liked the cleaner appearance ancd flavor. The problem was, now, that the beer was lighter in color, which meant that the drinking public thought it was not as strong and refused to pay as much for it. What to do? What to do?

Enter black malt. That same smokeless kiln allowed a maltster to roast malt until it was damn near ash. It tasted like hell, but brewers could add just a little to their pale malt bill to darken their beer's color. Since the public believed that darker beer was stronger beer, the brewer (or tavern owner or whoever) could charge more.

Voila. So, black malt was developed as a cheap way to make darker beer so that folks selling the beer could charge more for it. Add that to the fact that it tastes like an ashtray, and you'll start understanding why that awful stuff will never grace one of my beers.


TL

hmmmm....I've read so many opinions on black patent. At first I heard that it had a very strong taste....then this weekend I was reading a friend's homebrew recipe book (don't remember the author) and they recommended using black patent in Schwartzbiers and such because it would provide color without affecting taste as much as roasted barley or chocolate.

...And from the wiki : "Used in low proportions, black patent malt will add color to beers without a significant flavor impact. At a slightly higher rate, it will contribute dark, roasted flavors; overuse will lend an ashy flavor.....Some black malt is still used in most stouts, porters, and other dark beers, as well as to give color to some Schwarzbier. "

Of course "low proportions", "slightly higher rate", and "overuse" are never quantified, hence the original question.

I guess I'm just going to have to try this in a small sample batch and judge for myself.

{EDIT} just saw TexLaw's response....great info there!

....Another thought....I was listening to one of the Jamil Shows (don't remember which) and he talked about a technique he uses where he will grind chocolate malt into a powder and sprinkle it on top of the mash before sparging. He said that it helped darken up a beer without adding as much taste from the chocolate malt.

Just thinking out loud and wondering if that technique could be used with black patent.....

maltMonkey, i do think you should balance out TexLaw's response with the AustinHomebrew response. Obviously palates are different, so you could be more like TexLaw and hate and notice the black patent taste very easily, or you might lean more toward the side of taste where a little is fine and makes for a good porter.

It's all up to taste - I can see where Yooper and TexLaw are coming from, it does have a burnt, astringent taste. But, that is what I look for with it - I rather like low levels of the roasty, coffee-like qualities it imparts in the beer. Try it, see if you like it.

I've heard of folks doing something like that with black patent. I have also heard that a bit of finely ground black patent is a secret ingredient for getting a white head in a beer. I've never tested any of that, and I doubt I will.

On color, I tend to look at color as nothing more than a byproduct of brewing and something of a recipe check. If I make up a recipe, and the color doesn't come out right, I used the wrong ingredients or the wrong proportions. Skewing color with black patent just seems odd. However, if you want your beer darker just for the sake of it being darker, go nuts. It's your beer, and that's what makes this hobby so fun.


TL

I guess I'm always just trying to make some of my beers a little darker. I really like a good dark color, but I don't like a strong roasty or burnt taste (and definitely don't want anything "ashy"!). For example one of my favorite beers of all time is Old Engine Oil. It's incredibly dark, but also extremely well balanced without any roasty burnt flavors overwhelming.

Personally, I have never used black patent for coloring a porter.

However, I use around 7%-8% of the grain bill of it in my Dry stout and my oatmeal stout. I really like the flavor it imparts at that level, which isn't ashy to me.

It's all a matter of tastes! One of the great things about making your own, I guess.

There's no such thing as a wrong opinion!

maltMonkey said:

I guess I'm always just trying to make some of my beers a little darker. I really like a good dark color, but I don't like a strong roasty or burnt taste (and definitely don't want anything "ashy"!). For example one of my favorite beers of all time is Old Engine Oil. It's incredibly dark, but also extremely well balanced without any roasty burnt flavors overwhelming.

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Then what you want is just Carafa and not any other dark grain. If you use just that and something crystal/caramel for specialty grains you should be golden.