LME vs. DME

In my jest to find the killer beer for my wife, beer is always good to me, I've made extracts and kept copious notes. I'm starting to narrow it down as to what she likes and they have similar things in common. When I "think" I'm close to understanding her taste buds, I'm going to design a brew for her particular taste. So far, she's like the brews that have used DME in their recipes as opposed to the ones that use only LME. Roughly 2 lbs in a 5 gallon batch. She also seems to be leaning towards Willamette hops for both bittering and finishing, with an IBU of about 20 to 25. My question: Do I have to go with a LME and a DME, or can I just use DME? The two brews she's liked the most both used 3.3 lbs of plain amber LME and 2 lbs of either plain amber or plain light DME. She really likes American Ambers the best, it seems. Also with DME's, how do you order it? Individual pounds? I mean, as soon as you open it, it starts clumping so it's not like getting a scoop of sugar from the jar.

I've used Munton's DME so far and it comes in nice 3 pound bags. I've begun simply putting recipes together based on 6lbs light DME and using steeped specialty grains for color/flavor. That way, I can order up a bunch of 3 lb sacks upfront. 6lbs of DME in a 5gal batch gets you around 1.055 (acording to Qbrew that is). If you want a lower OG, you probably need to grab a few 1lb increments as well but it will be more expensive.

You could technically get the 55lb bulk and keep it in a spare sealed bucket. The clumping is only a problem in moist areas (like above your boiling brewpot)

Ol' Grog said:

In my jest to find the killer beer for my wife, beer is always good to me, I've made extracts and kept copious notes. I'm starting to narrow it down as to what she likes and they have similar things in common. When I "think" I'm close to understanding her taste buds, I'm going to design a brew for her particular taste. So far, she's like the brews that have used DME in their recipes as opposed to the ones that use only LME. Roughly 2 lbs in a 5 gallon batch. She also seems to be leaning towards Willamette hops for both bittering and finishing, with an IBU of about 20 to 25. My question: Do I have to go with a LME and a DME, or can I just use DME? The two brews she's liked the most both used 3.3 lbs of plain amber LME and 2 lbs of either plain amber or plain light DME. She really likes American Ambers the best, it seems. Also with DME's, how do you order it? Individual pounds? I mean, as soon as you open it, it starts clumping so it's not like getting a scoop of sugar from the jar.

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Surely you can just use DME without using any LME. It will dissolve in the boil, just as the LME would. I've made a couple recipes with all DME. I think there IS a conversion however of 3lb LME = 2.75lb(??don't quote me??) DME as the DME is slightly more concentrated or whatnot.

Obviously 2lb. DME into 5 gallons (without the LME you normally add) is going to make a VERY weak beer, so you can (and surely must) brew 5 gallons up with 5lb. - 6lb. DME.

Most DME's come in packages by weight, correct. I think my LHBS carries 1lb. 2lb. or 3.5lb bags. Or maybe they are just 3lb. bags.

1.055, what % ABV is that? I remember reading somewhere that there is a ratio that you use when substituting DME for LME.
Thanks.

Thanks Silkky brew, I posted that after you had already made you comments. Is there any fermenting differences between the two? Like, does one ferment better than the other?

If 1.055 OG wort ferments down to 1.010 wort, you'd have ~5.75% alcohol. You may be able to go a little lower if the wifey isn't a fan of high ABV beers.

1.045-1.050 would probably be ideal. (4-5% range)

Are you steeping with specialty grains?

Ol' Grog said:

Thanks Silkky brew, I posted that after you had already made you comments. Is there any fermenting differences between the two? Like, does one ferment better than the other?

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I've noticed no real difference in fermentation between the two and I've made brews with all LME, half LME/half DME, and all DME.

The all DME batches I've brewed MIGHT cause a slightly larger krausen from my experience, but that could be caused by any of the other ingredients and/or yeast strains as well (I've never used the same yeast on a batch yet), so to tie it to the DME is probably not accurate.

OG: LME and DME are essentially the same thing. LME just has water in it---and it's much messier to deal with, and it doesn't have as long of a shelf life, and it's a little cheaper typically. But other than that, you shouldn't notice too much of a difference.

Thanks ya'll. Just scanned over a website that I've ordered from in the past, leisure-time.com, and the DME comes in either 1 or 3 lbs packages. I guess for a 5 gallon batch of all DME, I'd use 6 lbs total, right? Also, about 9 bucks for 3 pounds decent price and why do they list the DME as being "sprayed." WTF is that?
Yeah, 4 to 5 % is about her limit. An ex girlfriend use to tell me this..."Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker."
Will still use grains, I think they help out the extracts a lot. Probably stick with Crystal Malt 60L, about 8 ounces for 20 minutes around 160F.

Ol' Grog said:

Thanks ya'll. Just scanned over a website that I've ordered from in the past, leisure-time.com, and the DME comes in either 1 or 3 lbs packages. I guess for a 5 gallon batch of all DME, I'd use 6 lbs total, right? Also, about 9 bucks for 3 pounds decent price and why do they list the DME as being "sprayed." WTF is that?
Yeah, 4 to 5 % is about her limit. An ex girlfriend use to tell me this..."Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker."
Will still use grains, I think they help out the extracts a lot. Probably stick with Crystal Malt 60L, about 8 ounces for 20 minutes around 160F.

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Not sure why it's called sprayed honestly, but Evan hit the differences on the head...

6lb. of DME should be fine for a 5 gallon batch. If that's still too strong for her taste, bump it back to 5 or 5.5...

I believe the term "sprayed" has to do with how they render the sucker into powder form.

Something interesting I read in a thread earlier today that may help decide how much to add:

Blender said:

he way I understand it is that as general rule is you get 45 GU (gravity units ) from DME and 36 from LME. This is per gallon of wort.
Let's say your recipe needs a starting OG of 1.053 for a 5 gallon batch. You multiply the last 2 numbers of the OG , in this case 53 by the number of gallons of wort. Then divide that number by the GU of the extract.

53*5 = 265 -- divide 265/by 36 for LME = 7.36 pounds of LME extract.
Hope this helps.

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So, basically if you are aiming to make her a beer with 1.050 OG, 50*5=250/45 gravity units for DME and you get: 5.55 lb. of DME.

GREAT!!!! You guys :rockin:

I haven't gotten any of my extract batches down to 1.010 yet and I've used DME and LME with various amounts of steeped specialty grains. I think my lowest FG was 1.014.

Anyway Qbrew (free software so take it with a grain of salt) puts 6lbs DME at 1.055 with a potential FG of 1.014 and a ABV of 5.4%. If you reduce it to 4lbs DME, you get 3.6% ABV. If I add 1lb of Crystal 60L steeped, it goes up to 3.8%

What kind of hops do you think you'll use?

Ol' Grog said:

...why do they list the DME as being "sprayed." WTF is that?

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Sprayed, or spray dried, just refers to the way the wort is concentrated and dried. Here's a blurb from an online ad for some Munton's DME:

How do you calculate the expected change in gravity from start to finish?

Calculating the expected change in gravity would be just a guess anyway... It all depends on how well the yeast does its thing.

For example, you could use Seafale-56 (two different packets of dry yeast) for two identical 5 gallon batches. The yeast from batch #1 might get you 72% attenuation and batch #2 (simply due to it being different yeast/organisms) might reach 78% attenuation. Given identical OG's, this difference would cause a difference in the FG's.

So, I guess you could calculate a "Range" based on the attenuation range on the yeast packet/tube/smack pack, but it really just depends on the yeast activity for that batch. Sometimes the yeast will exceed what the pack says and others it may not reach what the pack says.

SilkkyBrew said:

Calculating the expected change in gravity would be just a guess anyway... It all depends on how well the yeast does its thing.

For example, you could use Seafale-56 (two different packets of dry yeast) for two identical 5 gallon batches. The yeast from batch #1 might get you 72% attenuation and batch #2 (simply due to it being different yeast/organisms) might reach 78% attenuation. Given identical OG's, this difference would cause a difference in the FG's.

So, I guess you could calculate a "Range" based on the attenuation range on the yeast packet/tube/smack pack, but it really just depends on the yeast activity for that batch. Sometimes the yeast will exceed what the pack says and others it may not reach what the pack says.

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Very true.
Attenuation also largely depends on the actual health of the yeast, the batch OG vs. the starter OG (if used), and the final alc%.

This what I'm thinking at this point, got some newer stuff ready to sample this weekend though....
6 LBS Plain Amber DME
8 oz. Crushed Crystal Malt 60L
1 oz. Perle or Hallertau hops, 40 minute boil, bittering.
1 oz. Willamette hops, 10 minute boil,finishing.
Yeast....the most important ingredient...don't know yet. I know it will be a dry yeast....probably
Nottinghams or Muntons.
I might try a liquid yeast and reharvest it. Been doing some reading on that and it doesn't sound too difficult.
Since this is obviously an ale, what'd you suggest?
IBU......around 15 to 20.

That's almost identical to the amber I'm going to brew tomorrow (except I'm using Galena for bittering). I'm also thinking about steeping some toasted barley.

Haven't had any brew with Galena in it yet. Well, if your calling my recipe an amber, then I'm at least on the right track!!!!!

Grog,

Your color def falls into the American Amber Ale catagory but your IBUs are a little low (should be 25 - 40 IBU). According to Qbrew, your hop schedule will get you 14 IBU. If you increase your Hallertauer boil to 60 minutes, it should go up to 17. However, I believe Qbrew assumes a full boil hop utilization so if you're doing a partial, you might want to increase your bittering hops amount/boil time. Or...if you use Perle, your 40 minute boil should get you in range because it has more alpha. You should download Qbrew and play with it a bit.

Thanks. May have to do just that. Not a real big hop fan.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but an important thing to keep in mind with LME is that it darkens considerably over time. I haven't noticed any differences in flavor, but if you're going for a particular color, LME can throw it off. Most of my recipes call for a little bit of both, but it's the same stuff, and DME doesn't stick to the sides of its container, so I like it better.

Ol' Grog said:

Not a real big hop fan.

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Blasphemer!

I noticed in here talking about ordering or buying amounts of DME. My "local" homebrew store, an hour away in Columbia, offers 3 lb bags or 1 lb bags. So you can actually get one 3 lb and two 1 lb bags to make 5 if your batch calls for that. I just got all my ingredients for Merlin's Ale and it called for 5 lbs extra light DME. They are online at www.liquidhobby.com if you want to check them out.
On the same note however, another homebrew store that is up in North Carolina, they actually carry 5 lb bags and other odd measurements too. They are at www.homebrewadventrues.com in case anyone wants to check them out.

On the note of LME's vs DME's, I've noticed that with LME's it is a lot more mess and harder to get all of it out of the cans. Northwest extracts come in a pouch and you can squeez it all out. A lot less mess!

My wife's favorite store beer is Bud Ice. But she absolutely fell in love with my Cherry Wheat ale that I made. She actually came in and told me if I changed the recipe that she'd kill me! LOL! She also liked Cheesefood's Carmel Cream Ale,

School me on this, what is the difference in IBU's with hopped versus unhopped DME's???

UnHopped=No Hops= 0 IBU's
Hoped extracts are usually "ready to go" kits, where you just add water (sometimes sugars), and you have beer, so the IBU's depends on the kit

andylegate said:

On the note of LME's vs DME's, I've noticed that with LME's it is a lot more mess and harder to get all of it out of the cans. Northwest extracts come in a pouch and you can squeez it all out. A lot less mess!

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Here's a little trick I learned: use your spoon to ladle some of the hot wort back into the can, and swish it around. It'll melt the LME and make it easier to get out. Also, at my LHBS, they have barrels of dark, amber, and light LME and just tap me a bucket full of it. :rockin:

hb_99 buys DME by the 55# box, I believe. You can get a better deal on it that way and make 8-10 batches of beer. I buy 3# at a time which I use for making starters (6oz at a time) and I've had no problems at all just storing the DME in a ziploc bag with the air squeezed out. To measure it out I just pour it from the bag into the container I'll use to weigh it...I don't stick spoons are scoops in it.

You're right...I buy only 55# boxes of DME.

I also buy yeast by the couple (4-5) at a time and hops by the pounds.

I like to be prepared (somewhat) to brew anything I want at any time I want.

It's still early morning here. I started a starter last night for a batch today.

I'll also be bottling an American Ale (that I made on Teach a Friend to Brew Day) today before I brew.

My Mango Mead is ready to bottle also.

Doing a group buy on hops last fall with some fellow GRABASS'ers was one of the best things I've done. We got hops for around 50-60 cents/ounce, I think, and I've limited myself to 4-5 types of hops for the last year which has been really instructive for me.

I still have a lot of hops left which I'll probably use through the end of the year and then toss the remainder, but overall I'll still come out significantly ahead financially.