lager fermentation

once your wort is in the primary carboy, do you wait for fermentation to start before putting the carboy into your lagering fridge?

or do you put the carboy in the fridge right after the stopper and airlock go on?

TIA

You want to keep your lager fermentation at 50F for 3-4 weeks, until fermentation is complete. After that you'll want to bring it down to lagering temps around 33-34F for another 6 weeks. Do a search for "lager fermentation" and read up on some of the general lager technique threads.

Yes. Hopefully you have some temp control. 50 degrees!

so, you guys say to keep the primary fermenting container *OUT* of the fridge at room temperature until fermentation begins in about 24 hours??? then once it starts, thats when you start the primary lagering phase in the fridge at 47 degrees ish for 2-3 weeks. this is correct?

pkgmsu2000 said:

so, you guys say to keep the primary fermenting container *OUT* of the fridge at room temperature until fermentation begins in about 24 hours??? then once it starts, thats when you start the primary lagering phase in the fridge at 47 degrees ish for 2-3 weeks. this is correct?

Click to expand...

I pitch my yeast when the wort is at ~45F, then let it naturally raise to 50F. Keep it there for 4 weeks typically. Then bring the temp down to 33-34F.

If you pitch warm and then bring the temp down after fermentation starts you will end up with esters, off flavors, and lots of diacetyl.

pkgmsu2000 said:

so, you guys say to keep the primary fermenting container *OUT* of the fridge at room temperature until fermentation begins in about 24 hours??? then once it starts, thats when you start the primary lagering phase in the fridge at 47 degrees ish for 2-3 weeks. this is correct?

Click to expand...

No, I don't do that. I pitch at room temp and bring it down to 50 right away! As soon as the krausen drops I let it rise 3 degrees per day to 60 degrees until it is finished, then 3 degree drop per day to 35 for lagering.

strat_thru_marshall said:

I pitch my yeast when the wort is at ~45F, then let it naturally raise to 50F. Keep it there for 4 weeks typically. Then bring the temp down to 33-34F.

If you pitch warm and then bring the temp down after fermentation starts you will end up with esters, off flavors, and lots of diacetyl.

Click to expand...

This is what I do also, and is the best advise I can see to give you.

I usually cool my wort and yeast starter down to 50 degrees. I do this right after I am done brewing. Usually the next morning I will add the yeast starters. The Therminator does a good job of getting it to around 65 but the last 15 degrees take a few hours in the fridge. I do this so everything is the same temp and there is no shock to the yeast. I would cool the wort to the temp you want it to be and then pitch. Lager yeast don't need 70 degrees to get working.....they seem to start slower and ferment for a longer time. It's colder and they just aren't moving as fast. How long to ferment is determined by your gravities. 1 week 2 weeks whatever....it's all about the hydrometer. When you get to 75% of the total fermentation raise the temp 10 degrees over the course of a day or two for a Diacetyl rest. I have had good results using this method.

buckeyebrewer said:

I usually cool my wort and yeast starter down to 50 degrees. I do this right after I am done brewing. Usually the next morning I will add the yeast starters. The Therminator does a good job of getting it to around 65 but the last 15 degrees take a few hours in the fridge. I do this so everything is the same temp and there is no shock to the yeast. I would cool the wort to the temp you want it to be and then pitch. Lager yeast don't need 70 degrees to get working.....they seem to start slower and ferment for a longer time. It's colder and they just aren't moving as fast. How long to ferment is determined by your gravities. 1 week 2 weeks whatever....it's all about the hydrometer. When you get to 75% of the total fermentation raise the temp 10 degrees over the course of a day or two for a Diacetyl rest. I have had good results using this method.

Click to expand...

this is what we decided last night after brewing was complete. both wort and starter went into fridge overnight, still need to bring temp down a little more, will then pitch the yeast later on today.

then will take the O.G.

then i wait 7 days then take S.G. each day until i get two consecutive days with same reading.

I don't think you need to be super anal about the pitching temperature though, my wort chiller usually gets me into the mid to low 60's and I just pitch it then and put it right into the 50 degree fridge. Doing the first couple hours at a bit higher temp haven't given me off flavors, but going overnight at 70 degrees probably would.

I guess you're always better safe than sorry though, nothing sucks quite like waiting 8 weeks to dump a batch.

my weekend...

i brewed the czech pils on saturday night. i was able to get my wort down to 58 degrees with a chiller hooked up to my faucet and a big ice bath. because my yeast starter was NOT ready, i transferred the wort into my primary 6 gallon glass carboy, threw on an airlock and put the carboy in my fridge at 52 degrees overnight.

the next day when my starter was finally ready to do business around 1pm, i put the starter in fridge with the carboy and waited a few hours until BOTH were at 52 degrees.

then around 5pm, i pitched the wort with both at 52 degrees. i added some yeast nutrients, added some yeast energizer, did not have irish moss or gypsum though. now we play the waiting game and see where were at in 7 days. OG was 1.0395.

My Saflager yeast packet says you must pitch it straight into the wort between 63 and 73 degrees. Then ferment at the normal range (43 to 54 is what it states, I believe.)

First lager, so i am going to do that, and put it in the cooler right after pitching to get down to 50. That shouldn't cause esters should it?

That should be fine. What are you brewing and what saflager are you using? I only have dry lager yeast experience with w-34/70.

K thanks. I am doing Revvy's Vienna Lager with 34/70.

jaginger said:

My Saflager yeast packet says you must pitch it straight into the wort between 63 and 73 degrees. Then ferment at the normal range (43 to 54 is what it states, I believe.)

First lager, so i am going to do that, and put it in the cooler right after pitching to get down to 50. That shouldn't cause esters should it?

Click to expand...

Pitching warm will produce more esters and byproducts than pitching cold. No matter what you decided, always rehydrate the yeast, no matter what the dry yeast manufacturer says! Half the yeast will die without it and you need every cell you can get! If you're pitching one packet, you probably need to pitch warm, but it would be much better to pitch two packets, rehydrated properly, at 48-50 degrees. Also, if you pitch warm make sure you do a diacetyl rest when fermentation starts to slow down. Let the beer get up into the 60s to suck up any off flavors that were created by pitching warm.

Thanks very much for the response Tristan. Would you just help me understand why the manufacturer instructions are wrong and result in yeast dying? I'm new to lagering as I mentioned, so i thought going with what they said would be the right way to go, but it seems as though that's not correct.

I will definitely do the d-rest to make sure i'm covered there.

jaginger said:

Thanks very much for the response Tristan. Would you just help me understand why the manufacturer instructions are wrong and result in yeast dying? I'm new to lagering as I mentioned, so i thought going with what they said would be the right way to go, but it seems as though that's not correct.

I will definitely do the d-rest to make sure i'm covered there.

Click to expand...

Sure! When the yeast first rehydrate they can't control what comes into the cell walls. When wort rushes in it ends up rupturing a lot of the cells. When you rehydrate with preboiled warm water it allows the yeast to rehydrate without the danger of harmful substances entering the cell.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html

As far as why the manufacturer gives directions that aren't optimal, perhaps they feel that homebrewers can't rehydrate the yeast in a sanitary manner, but you're going to prove them wrong!

By the way, are you using Saflager W34/70? If so, it's one of my favorite strains. I've used it in 4+ beers and they've all come out excellent!

jaginger said:

Thanks very much for the response Tristan. Would you just help me understand why the manufacturer instructions are wrong and result in yeast dying? I'm new to lagering as I mentioned, so i thought going with what they said would be the right way to go, but it seems as though that's not correct.

I will definitely do the d-rest to make sure i'm covered there.

Click to expand...

It has to do with the solution that the yeast are rehydrating in. When they rehydrate their cell walls in water, they are able to recover from their freeze dried state in a healthy, neutral medium. When they rehydrate in wort, the sugar content causes problems rehydrating the cell walls due to osmotic pressure. This can cause the weaker cells to not survive the rehydration process.

The yeast company puts the simple instructions of "sprinkle in wort" on the pack because it is simple, non intimidating for the majority of home brewers, and will make beer. It wont give you maximum viability though, and you can make BETTER beer by rehydrating in water first.

EDIT: TristanL beat me to it. I think we're trying to say the exact same thing here...

Ughhh I just pitched mine right in, guess ill be rehydrating next time. How much water do you use? So you just boil water cover it let it cool and put the yeast in there let it sit for how long? And pour it in...

TristanL said:

Sure! When the yeast first rehydrate they can't control what comes into the cell walls. When wort rushes in it ends up rupturing a lot of the cells. When you rehydrate with preboiled warm water it allows the yeast to rehydrate without the danger of harmful substances entering the cell.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html

As far as why the manufacturer gives directions that aren't optimal, perhaps they feel that homebrewers can't rehydrate the yeast in a sanitary manner, but you're going to prove them wrong!

By the way, are you using Saflager W34/70? If so, it's one of my favorite strains. I've used it in 4+ beers and they've all come out excellent!

Click to expand...

Great info (you too, Strat). Based on this, i rehydrated a second packet and added it just 8 hours after the initial pitch i described above. I don't want my first lager to suck! Wort temp was 57 (on the way down to 50) on the repitch.

Yes, i am using the saflager W34/70. I also bought some S-23 for my next one. I've heard a lot of good about 34/70, so i may end up going back to it.

jaginger said:

Great info (you too, Strat). Based on this, i rehydrated a second packet and added it just 8 hours after the initial pitch i described above. I don't want my first lager to suck! Wort temp was 57 (on the way down to 50) on the repitch.

Yes, i am using the saflager W34/70.

Click to expand...

Nice work! You should have plenty of happy yeast fermenting away shortly!

Like I said, I love the Saflager w34/70. Not to get off topic, I know a lot of people have eschewed using dry yeast, but I've scored 38s and 40s in competition using this strain on German Pils and Vienna lagers. If you give this yeast a nice cool ferment you'll be rewarded! Also, it's supposed to be the same strain as WLP830.

I also recommend a higher than normal diacetyl rest for this strain because it throws lots of sulfur. When you warm the beer up at the end c02 will come out of solution taking the nasty aromas with it! You may need to lager this a bit longer for the sulfur to go away, but it will go away eventually leaving a wonderful lager beer behind.