Calculating stepping up a starter

I've always used the Mr. Malty yeast calculator before I brew to make the correct sized starter. I've only brewed ales and would like to try a lager. I plugged in the calculator:

OG: 1.056
Volume: 11 gals
Yeast Prod. date: 04/12/2011
Using a stirplate

It's telling me I need 4 packs in 4.02 liters of starter. I have a 2 liter flask. How do I go about this or do I need a bigger starter container?
Can I make a smaller starter, decant, and step it up? Like a 2 liter starter, cold crash, decant, and another 2 liters of fresh wort?
How do I know how much yeast is made when stepping up?

According to my calculations, you need about 860 billion cells. If you made a 2 L starter then stepped to 3.5 L it would only get you to 720 billion cells. Therefore, going from 2 to 2 would definitely not work. The only way I can see that working is to use 2 vials/packs then doing 2 and 2. Otherwise, you need to prepare a smaller batch.

In mr malty, just play with OG until it tells you what starter size fits your system. Use the amount of yeasted needed for the first calculation and input that into the viability field. Then repeat by changed the volume/OG etc.

Basically you make a starter to whatever size you want and then use that starter (and how many yeast cells you'll make) as the starting volume for the next one.

If you make a 1L starter with 1 vial you'll get about 200 billion cells. Decant this and pitch it into a 2L starter. This will give you about 400 billion cells. I highly recommend using fermcap or what AHS sells in the boil to cut down on overflow.

I thought that a 1L starter gets you 152 billion cells. A 2L starter will get you 200 billion cells. At least this is what I have read.

Has anybody tried this?
http://seanterrill.com/2010/03/08/two-stage-starter-calculations/

I basically followed the process outlined in the Yeast book, described by Billy Brew. Here's a link on how to do stepping with regular starters: http://billybrew.com/stepping-up-a-yeast-starter
Since I do not yet own the book, I can't say whether the table in the link is exactly doubled for stirplates, but that's what I'm currently doing and it seems to be working out pretty well.

If I put 2 vials in 2 liters I'd get 300 billion cells or on a stirplate, 600 billion cells. Where do I go from there to get 860 billion?

barrooze said:

I basically followed the process outlined in the Yeast book, described by Billy Brew. Here's a link on how to do stepping with regular starters: http://billybrew.com/stepping-up-a-yeast-starter
Since I do not yet own the book, I can't say whether the table in the link is exactly doubled for stirplates, but that's what I'm currently doing and it seems to be working out pretty well.

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They didn't make it too obvious in the book but a couple pages before the table they do say that their pitching rate experiments were done without any oxygen added, so this table is without added O2. If you're using a stir plate you can pretty much double your growth. My guess is that they did it this way to provide a baseline to work from since everyone's oxygenation methods are different.

barrooze said:

If you make a 1L starter with 1 vial you'll get about 200 billion cells.

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Conehead said:

I thought that a 1L starter gets you 152 billion cells. A 2L starter will get you 200 billion cells. At least this is what I have read.

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You're both right

It depends on oxygen. Adjust the OG in the calculator until you get a 2 liter starter, then set it on stir plate and it will be cut down to 1 liter. O2 at start gives you 1.5.

snail said:

If I put 2 vials in 2 liters I'd get 300 billion cells or on a stirplate, 600 billion cells. Where do I go from there to get 860 billion?

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Actually, on a stirplate you'll get 400 b cells by pitching 2 vials into 2L starter wort. From there you'll need to pitch it into 4L of starter wort. That'll get you 800 b cells and that's as far as the chart goes. It should get you pretty close.

BillyBroas said:

They didn't make it too obvious in the book but a couple pages before the table they do say that their pitching rate experiments were done without any oxygen added, so this table is without added O2. If you're using a stir plate you can pretty much double your growth. My guess is that they did it this way to provide a baseline to work from since everyone's oxygenation methods are different.

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Thanks for clarifying that for me, Billy. Great site btw! That tutorial for stepping up a starter was wonderful! I was so lost before watching it.

snail said:

If I put 2 vials in 2 liters I'd get 300 billion cells or on a stirplate, 600 billion cells. Where do I go from there to get 860 billion?

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You're going to need a bigger container than 2L. Once your pitching rate gets that high you get very little growth. Do you have a carboy you could make the starter in?

barrooze said:

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Billy. Great site btw! That tutorial for stepping up a starter was wonderful! I was so lost before watching it.

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Thanks! Yea they can be confusing. I had my fair share of headaches trying to learn enough to do that post.

Im so confused...
On the billybrew chart, it says 2 and 2 will give you 300 and if using a stirplate it will double. So I figured 600.

I believe I heard on the BN at some point that if using a stirplate half the volume of wort is required to yield the same number of cells if you made a regular starter. With that info, I took the chart from BillyBrew and divided all the volumes along the top in half. My chart then goes from 0.5L to 4L where the original chart ranges from 1L to 8L.

snail said:

Im so confused...
On the billybrew chart, it says 2 and 2 will give you 300 and if using a stirplate it will double. So I figured 600.

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It's double the growth. With 2 and 2 you are growing 200 billion cells to 300 billion, or 100 billion cells of growth. Double that and you get 200 billion cells of growth. 200 billion of growth plus the original 200 billion = 400 billion.

That throws a monkey wrench into my table! Gotta recalc it all now. thanks for clearing that up. I really need to get this book!

barrooze said:

That throws a monkey wrench into my table! Gotta recalc it all now. thanks for clearing that up. I really need to get this book!

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I was thinking the same thing!

lol It seems an appropriate time to say RDWHAHB.

BillyBroas said:

lol It seems an appropriate time to say RDWHAHB.

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Grrrr… if only I weren't at work...

I just recalced the table for stirplates and found that to get 250 b cells using a 3L starter I need to pitch -0.5 vials! What efficiency!!! I think I need to spend time at Mr Malty and redo the table completely since I don't do Simple Starters anymore.

barrooze said:

Actually, on a stirplate you'll get 400 b cells by pitching 2 vials into 2L starter wort. From there you'll need to pitch it into 4L of starter wort. That'll get you 800 b cells and that's as far as the chart goes. It should get you pretty close.

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Two vials in 1.7 L of wort will get you 400B cells. Then, if you decant and add 4L of wort you should get around 930B cells.

I downloaded a calculator for my smart phone that is capable of performing stepped starter calculations. Other than that, I haven't found a calculator online that can do that. I'm not sure why JZ hasn't added that feature.

If you have a smart phone, I would try to look for a calculator. It comes in really handy for situations like these.

App or Webapp? Do you remember the name of it? And yea, I misunderstood the impact of the stirplate when I wrote that earlier post.

barrooze said:

App or Webapp? Do you remember the name of it? And yea, I misunderstood the impact of the stirplate when I wrote that earlier post.

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I use "Brewzor Calculator" on my Android device. It has a lot of other useful calculators too.

That looks like a good one. I haven't found any decent free one for the iPhone yet. I'd make a go at one if only the stupid SDK wasnt apple only software. Oh well… I'll make a spreadsheet to use at some point.