Higher than expected OG...pitch more yeast?

Hi,

I brewed a Saison yesterday and my target OG was 1.060 (Grain bill was 12.2# for a 6 gallon batch + 1 pound of table suggar), but I ended up at 1.080. I am not sure how that happened actually. I was .5 gallon off at the end, but I would not think that would equal a 20 point jump.

I have pitched 2 Wyeast 3724 packs already. There is no visible activity right now (It's only been 7 hours since pitch).

Can I just pitch a Nottingham dry yeast instead of purchasing more Saison yeast?

Even with 2 packs of yeast you under pitched a beer that big. Assuming fresh yeast you should have needed about 300B cells or a 2.5L starter. BTW, you should always make a starter with liquid yeast and use: http://www.yeastcalc.com for making starter calculations.

That being said, 7 days is not nearly enough time to start worrying about activity. Some beers will require up to 72 hours for visible signs of fermentation so just be patient. The first phase of fermentation is the growth phase (lag time) This duration of time depends upon pitch rate, temperature, aeration and presence of adequate O2. If any of these items is lacking or deficient then lag time is greater.

In addition, air lock activity does not mean anything really other than gas is escaping. First the headspace needs to fill beyond capacity and then begin to vent. Buckets are notorious for leaky seals as well. Gravity readings are the only true way to determine what is happening.

I think for a six (6) Gallon Batch two packs should be fine but if after 24 hours you see nothing toss in the Nottingham.

To confirm... there are some yeast pitching calculators out there and I would bet they would say you pitched fine but double check and if you needed more toss in in NOW.

Sorry I don't understand these damn things as (I think) they assume you are making a starter.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

http://fermentationriot.com/yeastpitchratecalc.html

DPB

DPBISME said:

I think for a six (6) Gallon Batch two packs should be fine but if after 24 hours you see nothing toss in the Nottingham.

To confirm... there are some yeast pitching calculators out there and I would bet they would say you pitched fine but double check and if you needed more toss in in NOW.

Sorry I don't understand these damn things as (I think) they assume you are making a starter.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

http://fermentationriot.com/yeastpitchratecalc.html

DPB

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The numbers I stated in my post came from yeastcalc, verifying the underpitch. They are quite easy to use by simply plugging in the style of beer, lager or ale, adding manufacture date of yeast, OG of the beer in question and then the estimated required cell count needed. Mr. Malty will give you a total starter size required, yeastcalc will allow you to calculate stepped starters to achieve proper pitch rate.

Smack pack and vials are generally agreed upon to be adeq

DPBISME said:

I think for a six (6) Gallon Batch two packs should be fine but if after 24 hours you see nothing toss in the Nottingham.

To confirm... there are some yeast pitching calculators out there and I would bet they would say you pitched fine but double check and if you needed more toss in in NOW.

Sorry I don't understand these damn things as (I think) they assume you are making a starter.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

http://fermentationriot.com/yeastpitchratecalc.html

DPB

Click to expand...

The numbers I stated in my post came from yeastcalc, verifying the underpitch. They are quite easy to use by simply plugging in the style of beer, lager or ale, adding manufacture date of yeast, OG of the beer in question and then the estimated required cell count needed. Mr. Malty will give you a total starter size required, yeastcalc will allow you to calculate stepped starters to achieve proper pitch rate.

Smack pack and vials are generally agreed upon to be adequate for beers around 1.028 even though the packs themselves state 1.060. The fact is that by the time the consumer actually is ready to use the pack there are no longer 100B cells present.

None of this is meant to say you cannot just use a pack or two to pitch and still not get beer. It is simply meant to explain the importance of getting proper pitch rate to ensure proper, controlled fermentation.

I know everything about the yeast calculator. At 1.060 I should have used 2.5 packs. Since this is a Saison, I wanted to stress the yeast little bit, so I only bought 2 packs. However, the OG was completely off, which is hard to plan for....

There was no time for a starter. I don't even make a starter for my Heff, and it turns out fantastic.

I was not worried about the activity, I just put that in there to let you guys know that it had not moved to the fermentation phase yet. I thought maybe it would be a good idea to just throw in the dry yeast at this phase. I think the Saison yeast will still dominate, since the Nottingham is a pretty clean yeast.

duboman said:

The numbers I stated in my post came from yeastcalc, verifying the underpitch. They are quite easy to use by simply plugging in the style of beer, lager or ale, adding manufacture date of yeast, OG of the beer in question and then the estimated required cell count needed. Mr. Malty will give you a total starter size required, yeastcalc will allow you to calculate stepped starters to achieve proper pitch rate.

Smack pack and vials are generally agreed upon to be adequate for beers around 1.028 even though the packs themselves state 1.060. The fact is that by the time the consumer actually is ready to use the pack there are no longer 100B cells present.

None of this is meant to say you cannot just use a pack or two to pitch and still not get beer. It is simply meant to explain the importance of getting proper pitch rate to ensure proper, controlled fermentation.

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I don't thin I have ever brewed a beer will a OG as low as 1.028. Not even my Kolschs and English Milds come in that low.

I assume you are talking about OG since as far as I know yeast counts and calculations are based on OG and not FG. But I will go read my yeast primer again...

Then according to what you are saying I have been "underpitching" for years.

I assumed a single pack was good for a 5 gallon batch of your typiclal English or American Ales and frequeuntly I toss in an extra dry Yeast (Nottingham) as a backup for my large batches... I figured two Tubes or Packs of the yeast true to the style should take hold and the Nottinghan is just there as "backup"...

Happy Friday,

DPB

DPBISME said:

I don't thin I have ever brewed a beer will a OG as low as 1.028. Not even my Kolschs and English Milds come in that low.

I assume you are talking about OG since as far as I know yeast counts and calculations are based on OG and not FG. But I will go read my yeast primer again...

Then according to what you are saying I have been "underpitching" for years.

I assumed a single pack was good for a 5 gallon batch of your typiclal English or American Ales and frequeuntly I toss in an extra dry Yeast (Nottingham) as a backup for my large batches... I figured two Tubes or Packs of the yeast true to the style should take hold and the Nottinghan is just there as "backup"...

Happy Friday,

DPB

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I am speaking of OG and yes, you probably have been under pitching all this time which is why the two sites mentioned should be used. In most cases when you enter the info you will see viability is less than 100% so the cell count is down.

When using liquid yeast strains it is highly recommended making a starter to grow the yeast to proper pitching rate.

There are many threads here discussing this and I also highly recommend the book "Yeast" by Jamil Z and Chris White, from White labs. Yeast is one of the most overlooked ingredients in brewing and it plays a predominant role in the production of beer. I reference this book many times and find it to be a must on the shelves of a brewer.

But the vial/pack is not the same as a washed yeast from a fermented batch. Washed yeast does not last long...I think the recommended re-use is within 2 weeks because the yeast cells die off at a fast rate.

Basically what you are saying is that the manufacturer is lying by saying you can pitch one vial in a 1.050 wort? I say, that is false advertisement.

hinke said:

But the vial/pack is not the same as a washed yeast from a fermented batch. Washed yeast does not last long...I think the recommended re-use is within 2 weeks because the yeast cells die off at a fast rate.

Basically what you are saying is that the manufacturer is lying by saying you can pitch one vial in a 1.050 wort? I say, that is false advertisement.

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Sorry, I am not suggesting they are lying. Under optimal conditions of fresh yeast you can pitch one vial/pack and ferment beer. Just because the pitch rate may not be perfect doesn't mean you won't make beer but it's impossible for a manufacturer to predetermine the gravity of every individual beer so they have create what they consider to be an adequate packaging standard. It is then up to the consumer to adjust for purpose.

I had the wife drop in some Nottingham dry yeast. We'll see if that is enough. I mashed at 146-147F + there is 1# of table sugar, so hopefully it will attenuate to at least 80%.

Hi, i have a similer problem, i made a kit of canadian blonde lager a week ago and added 500grams more sugar than the kit said because i wanted it a bit stronger, my OG was 1048 and i have just taken a reading of 1031, which i worked out to be 2.7% ABV, way off the potential ABV of 6.2% my hydrometer gave me, does this mean i under pitched and i need to throw more yeast in? If so will it be too late now a week into fermentation?

johndavies86 said:

Hi, i have a similer problem, i made a kit of canadian blonde lager a week ago and added 500grams more sugar than the kit said because i wanted it a bit stronger, my OG was 1048 and i have just taken a reading of 1031, which i worked out to be 2.7% ABV, way off the potential ABV of 6.2% my hydrometer gave me, does this mean i under pitched and i need to throw more yeast in? If so will it be too late now a week into fermentation?

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Not necessarily, if it's a lager it I assume is fermenting cold and they usually run a lot longer than ales, like 4-6 weeks in primary and they don't drop gravity so fast.

I don't lager so I just understand rudimentary basics so maybe a more experienced lager person can chime in but my thought at only a week is you are not even close to being done fermenting

Its not a true lager strain, the kit says to ferment between 21 and 32 degrees celcius, which it has been for a week :/

johndavies86 said:

Its not a true lager strain, the kit says to ferment between 21 and 32 degrees celcius, which it has been for a week :/

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It is possible the yeast ate up all the simple sugars and got tired before they got to the complex sugars. Try giving the primary a swirl and get the yeast roused up again.

What yeast was used, that can help figure things out a bit as well as the actual recipe. Also, are you correcting your reading for temperature?

No idea what type of yeast it is because it came with the kit and was just in a foil sachet,
I dont know how to adjust readings to allow for temp, im relatively new to brewing, ill check again today if its still 1031 ill give it a swirl if its dropped ill leave it

Took another reading this morning and its dropped to 1020 so im goin to leave it for another week, panic over haha

OG on the Saison is now down to 1.012 from 1.075-1.080 Used 2 vials of Wyeast Belgian Saison and one packet of Nottingham yeast. Started fermenting at 68. Raised temp for 1 week to 81F.

My batch of canadian blonde has been brewing for 2 weeks now and FG has been 1005 for a few days now from an OG of 1048 so im gona bottle it up and wait patiently