Sour Double Kriek

I'm in the process of brewing a beer inspired by two great things that I've been introduced to since December: Three Philosophers style kriek type Belgens, and sour beer. I have a five gallon batch boiling on the stove right now. Grains: Vienna malt, brewer's 2-row, caraveienne, and de-bittered black malt. Hops: Palisade and Crystal.
Special bits: 3 tbs cacao nibs, 2 pounds frozen whole black cherries, peppercorns (3), nutmeg (<1g), cardamon (seeds of one pod), 2 quarts black cherry juice, 4.5 cups brown sugar.
Yeast: Trappist ale yeast (from White Labs), plus, and this is the exciting bit, dregs from Lindemans Kriek and New Belgum's Brett Beer.

Anyone tried anything like this? Any cellaring tips? Think this sounds bad, or great?

Cheers!

It's probably too late, but you really want to save the cherries and juice for after the primary fermentation. If you put them in before you pitch the yeast, you'll lost most of the cherry flavor. 3 philosophers is a quad or belgian strong dark ale with cherry kried added to it. So if you want to try it again, look for a quad recipe and then bottle with 2% kriek mixed in. I'd skip the spices, too. For the yeast, hopefully you made a starter from the White Labs vial or you'll severly underpitch. I don't think there's anything good in the Lindeman's bottle and New Belgium's beers are all pasturized so there is nothing in that one either.

Thanks for the feedback TNGabe,
Damn, I was worried about the possibility that the Lindeman's was filtered. I was hoping that all the sediment in the New Belgium meant that there were still some live bugs in it, damn again.
Regarding under-pitching, I don't typically make starters. Do you thing the OG will be so high that it will severely stress the yeast? I want to stress them a little bit to add weird esters to the beer (not going for anything described as "clean" here), but I don't want a stuck fermentation. It's not too late to drop by the brew shop and grab another vial, it would be nice to have an excuse to add a strain...

If Og is over 1.050, you need more than one vial. Did you brew it already?

I did brew it already. I'm about to pop it in the fermenter (as it has just now cooled enough) and will check the OG. I suspect it is a few above 1.050, maybe as much as 1.070 as I gave it a two hour boil. Any suggestions for White Labs strains to add to the Trappist strain for a high gravity, fruity, esthery character to complement the brett (where ever I ultimately get it from)?

It should be plenty complex already, but a second strain won't hurt at this point. Any of the other trappist/abbey strains would be a safe bet.

Super. I'm adding a vial of WL Belgian Strong Ale. Plus another 2 gallons of water since it boiled down so much (the OG was 1.092!!).

I'll be looking for a commercial sour to harvest some brett from, but I want to avoid lacto and pedio. I want the barnyard and even a little acetic acid that Monk's Cafe has (maybe I need pedio for that?) but not as much of the actual lemon juice like acid quality of La Folle. Any suggestions?

johnnyjumpup said:

Super. I'm adding a vial of WL Belgian Strong Ale. Plus another 2 gallons of water since it boiled down so much (the OG was 1.092!!).

I'll be looking for a commercial sour to harvest some brett from, but I want to avoid lacto and pedio. I want the barnyard and even a little acetic acid that Monk's Cafe has (maybe I need pedio for that?) but not as much of the actual lemon juice like acid quality of La Folle. Any suggestions?

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This thread is a great story of expectations,
Using dregs form pasteurized bottles.
Estimating a .07 gravity when its over .09

Great job at leaping right in! Your prob like me and have to do things with your hands to make it real.

Looks like an awesome mish-mosh of flavors that both those yeasts would give lots of flavor from, as others have stated always save honeys, juices, and fruit for 2/3 sugar break addition (honey,juices) or racking in secondary (fruit)
Try looking around some online HBS for that brett. Ive got WLP644 brett brux trois and it gives AWESOME peachy, fruity tones when green but if aged long enough has the ability to turn into that barnyard funk you desire not so much acidity but a nice punch of funk (i like to differentiate funk/sour) i think they just made it into a year round strain also!

Cheers would love to do a homebrew swap for some bottles if it ends up fermenting out! Good Luck!

johnnyjumpup said:

Super. I'm adding a vial of WL Belgian Strong Ale. Plus another 2 gallons of water since it boiled down so much (the OG was 1.092!!).

I'll be looking for a commercial sour to harvest some brett from, but I want to avoid lacto and pedio. I want the barnyard and even a little acetic acid that Monk's Cafe has (maybe I need pedio for that?) but not as much of the actual lemon juice like acid quality of La Folle. Any suggestions?

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100% Brett commercial beers are tricky to come by in my experience, although I know Mikkeller has a 100% Brett B. out right now as part of their yeast series, look for that if your local shop has a good selection.

Russian River Salvation is 100% beer with viable dregs. And Orval has two types of Brett in it w/ no pedio/lacto. But I believe Orval does have Sacchro.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!
Heading to the bottle shop later to see if I can find any of these guys.

I will probably let the Strong Ale and Trappist work for a week or two, then pitch the dregs of whatever I settle on, maybe along with some more cherry juice.

(I ended up bringing the "OG" down to 1.072 with a sanitized water addition)

Green Flash bottle conditions Rayon Vert with Brett. Not sure what kind though.

johnnyjumpup said:

I'll be looking for a commercial sour to harvest some brett from, but I want to avoid lacto and pedio. I want the barnyard and even a little acetic acid that Monk's Cafe has (maybe I need pedio for that?) but not as much of the actual lemon juice like acid quality of La Folle. Any suggestions?

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Where do you live so we know what you can get?

todd46 said:

100% Brett commercial beers are tricky to come by in my experience, although I know Mikkeller has a 100% Brett B. out right now as part of their yeast series, look for that if your local shop has a good selection.

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Ommegang Biere De Mars and Orval are a couple of common ones.

Calder said:

Ommegang Biere De Mars and Orval are a couple of common ones.

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Where can you find the Ommegang Biere de Mars? I thought it hadn't been brewed since 08.

They started brewing Biere de Mars again recently. Also if you want a source of bugs, Lindemann's cuvee rene gueuze is not pasteurized so it has some bugs in it, and it is fairly widely distributed. But they do pasteurize their other products.

lowtones84 said:

They started brewing Biere de Mars again recently. Also if you want a source of bugs, Lindemann's cuvee rene gueuze is not pasteurized so it has some bugs in it, and it is fairly widely distributed. But they do pasteurize their other products.

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Cool. Haven't seen it yet. Found an 08 recently that was very good, if somewhat on the decline.

Yeah I haven't had it yet but it has tempted me a couple of times at the bottle shop...

In response to TNGabe, I live in Austin Texas. So the selection is good of the subset that make it to Texas.
I can get Ommegang, Orval, Goose Island (just made a starter from the dregs of their Matilda, we'll see if it takes), Petrus, Victory, and some others. No Jolly Pumpkin or Russian River though.
I;m trying to find Ommegang's Biere de Mars, but haven't had any luck. Though one of my bottle shops has loads of unusual Ommegangs, do any other Ommegang beers have bugs or Brett in them?
Has anyone used the dregs of any of the Goose Island farmhouse ales? Any luck? As well, the one I used today was bottled this year (January), so there was zero funk to it. Have any of you had a chance to try one that's aged for a while? Anything funky happening in it?

Orval is a good bet. I don't believe it's a single brett strain per Brew Like a Monk. If you don't want anything other than brett, Petrus or any other Flanders is out. I really wouldn't bother looking for the Ommegang either. It's on the 'historical' list on their website. They have brewed a couple Biere de Gardes recently, so that might be the confusion.

Your best bet is to buy some Wyeast Brux, IMO.

johnnyjumpup said:

In response to TNGabe, I live in Austin Texas. So the selection is good of the subset that make it to Texas.
I can get Ommegang, Orval, Goose Island (just made a starter from the dregs of their Matilda, we'll see if it takes), Petrus, Victory, and some others. No Jolly Pumpkin or Russian River though.
I;m trying to find Ommegang's Biere de Mars, but haven't had any luck. Though one of my bottle shops has loads of unusual Ommegangs, do any other Ommegang beers have bugs or Brett in them?
Has anyone used the dregs of any of the Goose Island farmhouse ales? Any luck? As well, the one I used today was bottled this year (January), so there was zero funk to it. Have any of you had a chance to try one that's aged for a while? Anything funky happening in it?

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Thanks. I'll give an Orval a try and move on to Wyeast or White Labs if I don't have any luck. I'm not in a huge hurry as it is my understanding that brett added too early doesn't give as much character as it does when added in secondary (I suppose the stress induces production of the signature compounds?)

The Goose Island Matilda culture hasn't shown any signs of activity yet, though I'm not sure what to look for in a small starter with a tiny amount of Brett in it....

TNGabe said:

Orval is a good bet. I don't believe it's a single brett strain per Brew Like a Monk. If you don't want anything other than brett, Petrus or any other Flanders is out. I really wouldn't bother looking for the Ommegang either. It's on the 'historical' list on their website. They have brewed a couple Biere de Gardes recently, so that might be the confusion.

Your best bet is to buy some Wyeast Brux, IMO.

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Correct. From my experience (research and firsthand) Orval is Brett brux and lamb.

Great, I was hoping to get B. lamb, as it is supposed to be the most characteristic strain. Wouldn't mind a bit of B. brux either.

Isn't Jester King in Austin? I believe they have a 100% brett saison. Could be wrong but about that but they have a lot of funky beers to think about harvesting from.

They are here, and have a pretty big selection. All of the bottles read "Farmhouse ale yeast", and don't indicate anything else about the yeast or bugs in them. I've heard from a friend that some of them have really nasty sourness to them (so I'm thinking lacto and or pedio) but he didn't know which ones. Have you tried many of these? If so what did you think of them?
It's about time I started trying them I suppose!

runs4beer said:

Isn't Jester King in Austin? I believe they have a 100% brett saison. Could be wrong but about that but they have a lot of funky beers to think about harvesting from.

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Jester King just came out with El Cedro, which is fermented in primary with their house farmhouse yeast, then bottle conditioned with a strain of Brett. The dregs would be mostly Brett, but it's unfiltered so there would still be some Sacc in there. All of there other non-clean beers have some form of bacteria, no 100% Brett beer yet.

I'm a fan of their sour beers, really like the das Uberkind and das Wunderkind. Used the dregs of Funk Metal in a sour stout of my own. Haven't sampled yet, but there is a pellicle so the dregs are viable.

Nice, I think the Cerdo is only available bottled at two places at the moment, but it sounds like I should seek it out.

I'm going to post this in the yeast forum too but- the starter (DME and molasses) that I added Goose Island dregs has not formed any krausen, but there appears to be more sediment now (after about 24 hours) than there was in the bottle... I suppose this means the critters from the Goose Island are growing?

johnnyjumpup said:

I'm going to post this in the yeast forum too but- the starter (DME and molasses) that I added Goose Island dregs has not formed any krausen, but there appears to be more sediment now (after about 24 hours) than there was in the bottle... I suppose this means the critters from the Goose Island are growing?

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It's possible, or just added sediment from your starter liquid. Is this on a stir plate and/or are you aerating it somehow regularly (giving it a shake/stir somewhat often)? In my experience some dregs can take a full few days to show any signs of life but eventually get going. It probably just needs a little more time or oxygen (depending on how you're doing it).

No stir plate, just in a wide glass jug. I've bee swirling it, I'll be a bit more vigorous though. I didn't want to damage the yeast, so I've been gentle since adding the dregs. Perhaps that is unnecessary?

I'll keep an eye on it for a week or so before I give up. Any idea what I should see? Just regular old krausen?

johnnyjumpup said:

No stir plate, just in a wide glass jug. I've bee swirling it, I'll be a bit more vigorous though. I didn't want to damage the yeast, so I've been gentle since adding the dregs. Perhaps that is unnecessary?

I'll keep an eye on it for a week or so before I give up. Any idea what I should see? Just regular old krausen?

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Yeah, swirl the hell out of it as often as possible, no need to be gentle. You'll see normal krausen signs eventually (you'll swirl it and it will suds up like you're swirling a carbonated drink). It's always very satisfying once that finally happens

Good news, tons of sediment and the airlock is bubbling on the Goose Island starter. Not so sure I should use it in this beer though. I just read that brett can easily over attenuate a beer and make it flabby. I mashed for quite a while and kept it below 160 the entire time (I always shoot for high attenuation). Any thoughts on this?

Well, I just took a gravity reading of this batch (the ale, not the starter) and it has dropped nicely from 1.072 to 1.010 in five days, I'm pretty surprised by how well it matches what I intended it to taste like (minus the funk). I'm so pleased with it that I don't want to risk the chance of messing something up with the brett culture. Think I'm going to just age it and bottle it as is.
I only used the first runnings and froze the grain. I think I'm going to get about a pound of acidulated malt, mash it -> sparge the old grain -> and boil it all -> toss it on the yeast bed of the other one -> add cherries and cheery juice plus the brett culture in secondary. I think it will work out well...

johnnyjumpup said:

Well, I just took a gravity reading of this batch (the ale, not the starter) and it has dropped nicely from 1.072 to 1.010 in five days, I'm pretty surprised by how well it matches what I intended it to taste like (minus the funk). I'm so pleased with it that I don't want to risk the chance of messing something up with the brett culture. Think I'm going to just age it and bottle it as is.
I only used the first runnings and froze the grain. I think I'm going to get about a pound of acidulated malt, mash it -> sparge the old grain -> and boil it all -> toss it on the yeast bed of the other one -> add cherries and cheery juice plus the brett culture in secondary. I think it will work out well...

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Hah, i hit like before the second paragraph. Glad the beer came out well, the grain freezing sounds borderline insane.

Well, I'll report back with the post-grain freezing results of the second batch. I should be brewing that within a week or two.