Berliner Weisse/yeast options?

I'm extremely intreagued about brewing a Berliner Weisse. For the uninitiated it's a very tart, low alcohol, lacking in sweetness, and traditionally brewed with a lactic acid infused yeast. Atleast that's what www.germanbeerinstitute.com/Berliner_Weisse.html says (btw it's a great website). So I'm looking at brewing this in the next couple of brews, mostly because it and a Roggenbier (rye wheat) will give me a nice 10 gal stash of easy drinking summer brews heading into the summer (that's mid April here in Mississippi).

My question is this, is there a Berliner Weisse yeast available and if not what strain or strains should be used? www.ebrew.com has a very inexpensive kit available I've shot them an email asking for the ingredients to the kit, waiting on the reply. Thoughts on yeast strain? Or experience with brewing or drinking this beer.

Schlante,
Phillip

Well, there's a couple of options. My plan (I'm brewing this next, maybe tomorrow) is to pitch a lacto culture from Wyeast, let that do its things for a couple of days, then pitch a packet of US-05 to finish up. You could use a German ale yeast to be a bit more authentic, but really, I'm just looking for THAT part of the fermentation to be clean and to attenuate highly (the lower the FG, the better).

Wyeast also has a Berliner Weiss VSS blend out right now (it won't be out forever):

3191 Berliner-Weisse VSS Jan-Mar 2008. Includes a German ale strain with low ester formation and a dry, crisp finish. The Lactobacillus included produces moderate levels of acidity, and a unique Brettanomyces strain from a now defunct brewery in Berlin imparts a critical earthy characteristic that is indicative of a true Berliner Weisse. Generally requires 3-6 months of aging to fully develop flavor characteristics. Apparent attenuation: 75-77%. Flocculation: low. Optimum temp: 55°-68° F

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If I hadn't already purchased the lacto culture, I would have done that.

You can also do a sour mash, basically by letting your mash sit for up to a couple of days. Toss in a handful of grain after conversion, grain is loaded with lactobacillus culture. Let it sour up; when it's sour enough, boil the wort and you've locked in the sourness.

There's a great Jamil Zanasheff podcast (from The Brewing Network) on BW that I was re-listening to this morning - really good information. Again, I haven't brewed this yet, but I've done a lot of research. A couple folks (Sause, Brewtopia) have brewed this with great success, you might touch base with them if they don't chime in here.

I just made a BW and used the Wyeast VSS blend. It fermented out very fast and I am pretty happy with the results. If this was not available I would probably gone with US-05 and a lacto culture like bird said.

Here is the thread on that blend: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=50043

Yeah I made two batches. With one I did the Lacto/Yeast thing with giving the Lacto a two day start. The second batch I just pitched on to the yeast cake but it seems less sour than the first. I will give it more time to see.

I've made 2 BW and always used Wyeast 1007 for the initial yeast, and either Pedio or Lacto for the added sourness. The first batch I made, I added the Pedio with the 1007 and it turned out good. The second, I let the 1007 go for about 2 days, then add the Lacto. That is in bottles now, for about 3 weeks. Initial tasting, it was somewhat sour, but will get more sour with more aging. The bacteria needs the alcohol present before they can oxidize it to lactic acid (for the sourness), so, in my mind anyways, adding the bacteria first before the yeast won't do much good, but haven't tried it to verify for sure.

avidhomebrewer said:

The bacteria needs the alcohol present before they can oxidize it to lactic acid (for the sourness), so, in my mind anyways, adding the bacteria first before the yeast won't do much good, but haven't tried it to verify for sure.

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That's not true Lactobaccilous eats sugers and turns that into lactic acid. If not why would a sour mash work? In my first batch I had a krausen from the lacto. You got your info wrong buddy.

I actually did a two week starter with the Lacto as recommended in the BYO recipe. and I agree with sause, lacto doesn't need the presence of alcohol to sour.

'Topia, you do anything special with the starter? Stepping it up, limited O2, etc? I've decided to wait on the BW until I can make a starter, the culture's been in the fridge for a while now, I better make sure that it's all viable.

(Plus, I *really* need to get a stout on draft for St. Patty's)

Just wondering, would the lacto/brett still stay in my fermenter after the brew?
Would it sour up any beers thereafter?

Thanks alot for the replies... or should I say the answers! Great timing my wanting to brew a BW and Wyeast having a special strain! Sweet!

Another question if I may! Being a Weisse beer it's obviously a wheat beer. The German beer style guide I referenced earlier states it's 25-30% malted wheat. Anyone care to share thier grain bill/Recipe. (fyi I'm an extract brewer) I'm thinking if I don't like the ingredients of the ebrew kit I may buy the ingredients individually for this one.

Schlante,
Phillip

Originally posted by the_bird
'Topia, you do anything special with the starter? Stepping it up, limited O2, etc?

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I didn't do anything special, just prepared as usual with 1/2 cup DME in 16 oz. water.

Originally posted by MVKTR2
Anyone care to share thier grain bill/Recipe.

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For my grain bill, I used
4 lbs Pilsener Malt
2 lbs Wheat Malt



On a side note: This beer has been in the bottle for about 5 weeks now and it is noticably more sour than when I first bottled it. I'm really looking forward to drinking this in the summer!

I used 3.5# 2-row and 2.5# wheat. You can use you wheat ME since it's mostl likely about the same ratio.

I'm glad I found this thread! I was actually just listening to Jamil's show on Berliner Weisse and it was the incredibly short boil time that really caught my attention. Did he really say 15 minutes?!?!?! Wow.

I had opportunity to try a Berliner Weisse at a homebrew club brewday recently and it was a wonderfully refreshing beer. If memory serves, it used the European Ale yeast which lent a really tart apple character...quite nice.

Might be a good opportunity to try doing a sour mash.....even though it's quite late in the season to be making a beer of this style.

+1, I've been eyeing Berliner Weisse for quite a while now.... I'm almost through my brew backlog, and been wanting to try out a sour mash! Was thinking about jds' sour stout, but this sounds sooooo good too.

sause said:

That's not true Lactobaccilous eats sugers and turns that into lactic acid. If not why would a sour mash work? In my first batch I had a krausen from the lacto. You got your info wrong buddy.

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You didn't have a krausen, you had a pellicle. YOU have your info wrong buddy.

Before being condescending to another homebrewer, think first. These people are asking for assistance, not to be talked down to.

Welcome to the forums, @needscip

Your admonition probably comes a little late, but you’re right to remind us all to be friendly and helpful to others.

sause said:

That's not true Lactobaccilous eats sugers and turns that into lactic acid. If not why would a sour mash work? In my first batch I had a krausen from the lacto. You got your info wrong buddy.

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You didn't have a krausen, you had a pellicle. YOU have your info wrong buddy.

Before being condescending to another homebrewer, think first. These people are asking for assistance, not to be talked down to.

AlexKay said:

Welcome to the forums, @needscip

Your admonition probably comes a little late, but you’re right to remind us all to be friendly and helpful to others.

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This thread is still active, so it's never too late. Cheers!

needscip said:

You didn't have a krausen, you had a pellicle. YOU have your info wrong buddy.

This thread is still active, so it's never too late. Cheers!

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Okay welcome noob… still active because you’re trying to argue with members that haven’t been on in a while… Anyway, if you think alcohol must be present for Lactose please explain how kettle souring works. No, please don’t it was a rhetorical question.
Be well.

Hoppy2bmerry said:

Okay welcome noob… still active because you’re trying to argue with members that haven’t been on in a while… Anyway, if you think alcohol must be present for Lactose please explain how kettle souring works. No, please don’t it was a rhetorical question.
Be well.

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So much anger here. Disappointing really.

I'm curious, when did I say that "alcohol must be present for Lactose". I'm am 100% certain you truly meant milk sugar and not Lactobacillus.

Kettle souring is the easy (and absolutely acceptable) way to achieve a true to style Berliner Weisse brew and can be achieved in a vast array of methods. Where would you like to start? Perhaps the shot in the dark Good Belly or Greek Yogurt route? Or perhaps innoculate your kettle wort with an isolated strain of Lactobacillus? Brevis and Casei are my personal favorites. Are you shooting for aerobic or anerobic bacterial growth? What would you like yout total titratable acidity to be? Just want to do a pH assertion of your supposed level of "tartness"? Talk to me Goose!

There is a number of different ways to skin this cat, but something tells me you knew this already but still wanted to sound more than a 'noob'.

Happy Brewing, my guy!

Skip the bugs altogether and use a souring yeast! I made a Weisse I liked using Philly Sour, and if you want much more bite than that there’s Sourvisiae.

Bacteria in beer is so 20th century.