That Friend

I've got a fellow homebrewing friend who basically got me into the hobby. I am more of a KISS brewer, i like to use minimal ingredients to achieve the flavor profile i'm looking for and keep it pretty balanced. He on the other hand constantly puts the kitchen sink in all his beers, and most need to be around or above the 9% mark. He has yet to make a beer in which barley, hops and yeast were the only ingredients.

I'm all for experimentation and creativity, when he says to you "it's not fun for me unless i can get extremely creative about the beer i make" it's hard not to like the enthusiasm. The only problem is that most of these beers turn out really bad, with a few exceptions along the way but these were also not something i'd reach for if i had other options.

This was by no means saying someone else is inferior to me, as i make the crappy batch as well, just frustrating to see someone who's passion got me into this, well kinda stink at it.

End Rant

Id chalk it up to different strokes for different folks.

Im more on your side of the spectrum but that doesnt mean the "mad scientist" approach is inherently bad. How many filiments did Edison try before he made a light bulb that was worth a crap? I dont know but I bet its safe to say thousands. When he hit the right one he changed the world forever. Maybe your buddy will change the world of beer someday? Until then Id hedge my bets and keep making your KISS brew.

think in all fields, there has to be both kinds of scientists, the sane and the mad.

the evolutionary and the revolutionary

small steps and giant leaps

I was a lot like your friend and still am somewhat. Heck, I even have a recipe for a beer called "The Kitchen Sink." I think more recently I am going to try and do more basic beers but still utilize some exotic ingredients that I have experience with from doing so many weird/big/complicated brews. I obviously see nothing wrong with the mad scientist approach but it can be easy to get stuck in a rut of brewing crazy **** just because you can.

Homebrewer Rule #3 Thou Shalt Not Criticize How Another Homebrewer Brews, just because it's different from our own way. Ask 10 homebrewers how they do something and you'll get 12 different answers, and they ALL will be correct..

I realize that post came out wrongly. I'm not knocking the guy, i love the guy. Just at some point i'm going to need to stop faking the " oh yea this is pretty good" deal. I'm all for experimentation, just not my thing so a said above "different strokes for different folks"

Again sorry for the de-constructive critiscm just curious if anyone else out there had that same kinda guy around.

I have a friend who sometimes comes over to help me brew. He’s interested in brewing and knows enough to be dangerous, but hasn’t ever done it all by himself. I personally think he sees and understands how much work and effort it takes and doesn’t find it worthwhile to do it on his own. In fact he gave me his starter kit that his wife bought him so I could use the buckets and bottling equipment. I totally respect that. Plus it gives us both a chance to hang out in my garage, drink a few, smoke a few stogies, and get away from our SWMBOs.

Anyhow, he pretty much always wants to brew over-the-top beers. Pecan Bourbon Porter, ChupaHOPra, Pliny the Elder Clone, 60 Minute IPA (where we mixed up 5-6 varieties of hops and just continually threw them in the pot), are some of the beers we have made together. And you know what, they all turned out good or great! I think partially it’s because I have a little bit more knowledge about brewing basics and styles and I am also more conservative, so I know when it’s time to reel him back in.

It works out great for us because he maybe comes to help brew once every 5 or 6 sessions, which is usually just in time to put something crazy on tap. In between I primarily make the standard 4-6% ABV beers that everyone enjoys. Usually giving him a 12 pack or a case along the way.

Sometimes you need a Hyde to your Jekyll. Maybe you should work on some collaboration brews!?

I sometimes find it difficult to be brutally honest when it comes to giving feedback on things, especially if its something that can hurt feelings. I was raised "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all"

Many times I'm silent. Lol

My fiance is the polar opposite, no qualms about opinions. I guess that's why we work

Anyway, not giving honest feedback is not doing him any favors. That is if he asks your opinion.

But to him, he may love his beer. And that may be all he's worried about. I like to share mine, and hope those people.truly enjoy what I've made.

iowabrew said:

I realize that post came out wrongly. I'm not knocking the guy, i love the guy. Just at some point i'm going to need to stop faking the " oh yea this is pretty good" deal.

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Actually, I think that came across fine in your post. It's his beer, he can do what he wants, but I know the feeling when someone keeps offering you things and explains what they're doing and you gently suggest maybe a different approach in certain areas. You slug down the beer and try not to grimace. Next month, they give you a new beer and they obviously had no interest in even considering any of your suggestions. You slug down the beer...and try not to grimace.

I think this is more of what i needed kpr! I completely agree with the jekyll and hyde deal. May have to start some collabs. I guess the logical side of me is always asking, why would someone waste time, money and energy on something to have it came out tasting like dirt...but like mentioned above one day he may came out with something pretty damn amazing.

Yeah, you just have to be able to jive together. There needs to be some give and take. Back to my friend as an example, he knows that I am more knowledgeable and passionate about brewing and respects when I tell him ‘no, that won’t work’. And I know that his off the wall ideas have worked very well in the past, so I respect his ideas and roll with the punches.

If you both end up stuck in your ways, those collabo’s might not work out so well!

Agreed ^^ Like hey maybe a double ipa with whisky, peat malt, vannila and cinnamon sticks sounds awesome, BUT it might be a little overwhelming to the palate... this is next up on his brew sched.

try the criticism sandwich: say a nice thing, crushing bad thing, and another nice thing. i find it really softens the blow

"the color on this beer is beautiful! however, i really think the next batch would benefit from skipping the velveeta and WD-40 in the secondary, i find they just don't fit in. and i really like the strong hop aroma!"

iowabrew said:

I realize that post came out wrongly. I'm not knocking the guy, i love the guy. Just at some point i'm going to need to stop faking the " oh yea this is pretty good" deal. I'm all for experimentation, just not my thing so a said above "different strokes for different folks"

Again sorry for the de-constructive critiscm just curious if anyone else out there had that same kinda guy around.

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Does your friend dislike his beer too or is he proud of it?

I know for myself that I want people to be brutally honest of my beer but very seldom are they. The only person that gives me good feedback and constructive criticism is my wife. I tend to agree with Revvy's sentiments but sometimes if someone's beer is consistently undrinkable a friendly intervention may be necessary. If he thinks you're being an ******* then let it go. But like me he may be waiting for someone to give him some good, well thought out criticism from someone he trusts.

His whole deal is, yeah this is barely drinkable, if i give it a year it will be amazing. He doesn't make starters for anything, we're talking 1.080+ beers with one smack pack pitched, which i've preached the importance of yeast health before. He routinely ferments in the upper most limits of most yeast temp range. I am not a pro or claim to even be great, but i feel like my process is pretty sound as far as pitch rates, sanitation, ferm temps, etc. so maybe a process intervention is in order.

iowabrew said:

Agreed ^^ Like hey maybe a double ipa with whisky, peat malt, vannila and cinnamon sticks sounds awesome, BUT it might be a little overwhelming to the palate... this is next up on his brew sched.

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That sounds awful!! Peat malt does not belong in beer!!!!

I hate when people say they like my beer that I know it not up to par. Its hard to determine sometimes whether they have no palate or are just trying to be nice.

Me and my brew bud are like that, he is always trying to add this or that to recipes, or doing over the top beers. I am more into getting consistent solid results first and then adding something wild. Its works as long as Im able to keep him under control.

May have to bite the bullet and give some honest feedback!

Yeah it sounds like its not exclusively an ingredient issue (although peat moss=blechhh!). Seems like he could use some real process advice.

I am"sorta" like your friend I think but not quite as far out there. My first recipe/beer I made was a coconut black ipa and Ive made things like a smoked maple oktoberfest, pineapple coconut pale ale and a imperial kiwi saison.

I hardly every brew to a "style" but most of my beers have turned out pretty good.

My advice to you, give him some honest feedback. He can either take it or leave it, but not giving honest feedback doesn't help the brewer.

the_trout said:

...How many filiments did Edison try before he made a light bulb that was worth a crap? I dont know but I bet its safe to say thousands. When he hit the right one he changed the world forever...

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To answer your light bulb question, none. Thomas Edison was a giant **** bag who made a career out of stealing ideas from great minds, then using a huge financial backing to steal or undercut the patents. Your question should read, "How many filiments did Joseph Swan try before he made a light bulb that was worth a crap?"

I know I get really fired up speaking about American history as well.....damn you Edison

I also heard Benjamin Franklin stole the kite that he flew in the lightning storm


....from a child

Don't get me started about James K. Polk!!!!! I can never forgive the man!!!

kpr121 said:

Yeah it sounds like its not exclusively an ingredient issue (although peat moss=blechhh!). Seems like he could use some real process advice.

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Malt, not Moss!!

Actually, peat moss would probably taste better than peat malt.

I think everyone who brews enough, and knows other brewers has this same friend. I agree with Revvy's sentiment - essentially to each their own. However, that does not mean you are in anyway obligated to lie to him and tell him the beer is good, if it is not. I have had this same thing happen on many occasions... "Here, try this! I put XXXXX in it! Isn't it great?" I just tell them it is not for me, or it is just too overwhelming, or whatever. I know someone who has many process errors and throws every conceivable thing in their beer .. . .and ends up with fusel/phenolic bombs time after time.... I point out that the beer is "hot" . . .need to ferment lower. Chlorine and hard water are causing you problems. I try to be honest, and point out something I also like about the beer . . . . but you can only do so much. Keep trying them. Don't lie (too much), try to give pointers.
Maybe enter a competition or two together . . . .perhaps the cold, hard written facts from an unbiased judge could serve as inspiration to try things like starters, lower temps, simpler grain bills, etc.

iowabrew said:

I realize that post came out wrongly. I'm not knocking the guy, i love the guy. Just at some point i'm going to need to stop faking the " oh yea this is pretty good" deal. I'm all for experimentation, just not my thing so a said above "different strokes for different folks"

Again sorry for the de-constructive critiscm just curious if anyone else out there had that same kinda guy around.

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You always tell him his bad beers are good? No wonder he keeps making bad beers.

I'm sure he would actually appreciate a good, honest, helpful critique of his beers. That doesn't mean ripping on it, it means recognizing it for what it is, and discussing how to make it better.

He has to be going for a specific flavor with his additions. Help him find that flavor, and make it actually taste right.