Wyeast 1318 (London Ale III): Advice Needed

So here's the story. I'm currently fermenting a basic porter using Wyeast 1318. I didn't really know what this meant before I started this beer, but apparently Wyeast 1318 is a "true top-cropping yeast strain." Evidently, this means that the initial fermentation will be intense (using a 6.5-gallon carboy and no starter, I still required a blow-off hose), and the krausen, once established, will pretty much never fall to the bottom on its own. In a way, I'm relieved. At first I thought I must have done something wrong when I noticed the krausen not subsiding at all after a week in the primary (even though primary fermentation had clearly slowed way down), but then I read that this yeast strain is known for this behavior. Phew. However, now I don't know how to proceed; I've found different advice from different places. So, given the following options, what do you guys think I should do?

A. Regularly agitate the beer for the remainder of fermentation. One source I've found explains that true top-croppers need to have their krausen nudged back into the beer in order for fermentation to complete properly.

B. Just leave it alone for now and rack from underneath the krausen layer after fermentation has stopped (as indicated by hydrometer readings). I guess I could do this, but then I'd be worried about mixing the krausen into my finished product. Would this be a risk factor?

Thanks in advance for any input you guys can offer, and let this post be a warning for future London Ale III users.

I haven't had to rouse 1318 to have it complete, but the 5 or so times I used it, it was with low gravity bitters (1.045 and below) so it didn't need rousing to finish. I wouldn't remix the crust that forms after 10-12 days back into the beer either if you have been open fermenting because it might form chunks.

When it comes bottling time, I just take a spoon and throw away the crust and then rack.

Thanks for the input jfr1111. My beer is also pretty low gravity (1.045 OG), but I am not using an open fermenter. I'm using a standard carboy-and-airlock setup, and I don't believe I could get a spoon in there. I would like to just leave the beer alone and rack as normal when it comes time to do so, but how do I rack when there's still a relatively thick krausen layer on top?

Just rack from underneath then. You lose a bit more beer this way, but it's really not a problem.

I've had 1318 form a crust that stayed on top of the beer for 5 weeks after fermentation was done (law school got in the way of bottling that one...). I ended up feeding the lawn with the beer because I didn't have time to bottle it before moving and it had gotten pretty lifeless from sitting on the cake so long, but it's just a testament to how long that yeast can stick around on top.

That beer was brilliantly clear though.

I would rack from underneath, if it doesn't drop in a couple weeks, and bottle.

The crap that's stuck to the top of your fermentor is full of excess hop resins , if you swirl that in too, you'll probably get some astringency in your finished product.

From How to Brew:

The brown scum that forms during fermentation and clings to the side of the fermentor is intensely bitter and if it is stirred back into the beer it will cause very astringent tastes. The scum should be removed from the beer, either by letting it cling undisturbed to the sides of an oversize fermentor, or by skimming it off the krausen, or blowing off the krausen itself from a 5 gallon carboy.

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Braufguss said:

I would rack from underneath, if it doesn't drop in a couple weeks, and bottle.

The crap that's stuck to the top of your fermentor is full of excess hop resins , if you swirl that in too, you'll probably get some astringency in your finished product.

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I don't think OP is talking about the krausen deposits that form on the side of the fermentation vessel. That stuff is nasty. What he is talking about is the pure yeast that top cropping strains throw on top of the beer. It's quite freaky really, and you do have to mix that back in during the first days of fermentation with some strains because the yeasts just want to chill on top surface of the wort and will not attenuate properly. Hence the "crust" terminology. It has the consistency of peanut butter.

I just brewed a porter with the same yeast and it is tasty... I always crash cool before transfering. I decide to crash cool when the fermentation has gone as far as I want it to go. If you pitched a healthy quantity of yeast you may be able to over ferment your beer and it will end up way too dry. Just monitor your fermentation and crash cool when you get to your desired gravity. This method works for me everytime... I wouldn't agitate the yeast too much. Just let them do their thing and then kill the temp on them and they will fall out of suspension in a few days. If you are not okay with aseptic techniques I wouldn't knock the krausen back any, just let it be.

Good luck man

just make sure that it's finished (or close to it) when you rack. when I used that yeast, it took some time to finish

I've also got a porter going with the London III. It's been 2 weeks in the primary and there's still a thick krausen. I figured I'd just rack from underneath if it is still there in a week's time.

Gravity readings, my friends, gravity readings!!! Then and only then will your beer be done. On top of that, you should crash cool before you rack. If you are trying to hit 1.016 and you rack and 1.016 with out crashing, there will stil be residual yeast in there and they will reduce your gravity past your target point.

There is nothing wrong with a 3 day fermentation that conditions for 27 more days. You really don't even have to rack to a secondary. Just crash cool once you have hit your final gravity.

jlaureanti said:

Gravity readings, my friends, gravity readings!!! Then and only then will your beer be done. On top of that, you should crash cool before you rack. If you are trying to hit 1.016 and you rack and 1.016 with out crashing, there will stil be residual yeast in there and they will reduce your gravity past your target point.

There is nothing wrong with a 3 day fermentation that conditions for 27 more days. You really don't even have to rack to a secondary. Just crash cool once you have hit your final gravity.

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Crash cooling to halt fermentation might be okay if you are kegging afterward, but if you are bottling, you have to make sure the real final gravity (and not the one you predicted) is attained for a few days @ your final temperature because you NEED the yeast to carbonate the beer in the bottle. If everything went well the predicted FG and real FG will be the same, but I wouldn't risk crash cooling at predicted FG.

jfr1111 said:

If everything went well the predicted FG and real FG will be the same, but I wouldn't risk crash cooling at predicted FG.

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Not true at all. FG is based upon the health of the yeast and the size of the pitch. By simply differing the OG of your starter you are differing the quantity of yeast pitched. Aeration is also an important factor. By adjusting the aeration levels you are adjusting the viability of your yeast buddies. If you don't make starters and just pitch from the pack, each pitch will be of a different quantity and viability. I have had the same yeast ferment out at 60% and 90%. It just depends on the conditions that you give them.

If you know what you are doing and can handle a few simple calculations, you will be able to make repeatable beers every time. Not just sometimes

jlaureanti said:

Not true at all. FG is based upon the health of the yeast and the size of the pitch. By simply differing the OG of your starter you are differing the quantity of yeast pitched. Aeration is also an important factor. By adjusting the aeration levels you are adjusting the viability of your yeast buddies. If you don't make starters and just pitch from the pack, each pitch will be of a different quantity and viability. I have had the same yeast ferment out at 60% and 90%. It just depends on the conditions that you give them.

If you know what you are doing and can handle a few simple calculations, you will be able to make repeatable beers every time. Not just sometimes

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I really don't know where you are going with this, but let me reitarate my point:

Crash cooling when reaching your desired FG is nice if you are force carbing the beer afterward because the beer will not go back to fermentation temperatures and there's no chance for renewed fermentation and overcarbonation. You might or might not be stalling the fermentation. If you take gravity readings on multiple days before crash cooling, the point is moot because fermentation will be done. If this is what you are doing, then everything is cool, but if you are instead taking a single reading and then crash cooling, there's no way to know for sure if fermentation is done, unless a fast ferment test was done beforehand.

Fast ferment test

Again, this poses no problem if you are crash cooling, kegging it and sticking it in a 35F keezer. But if you are bottle conditionning, you risk the yeast waking back up after your sugar addition and getting overcarbonated bottles. Crash cooling/fining removes a good portion of yeast, but not all of it. There's always a possibility for the remaining yeasts to complete the job once they are brought back to room temperature after crash cooling.

Pitch rates, aeration and the like all have an effect on final attenuation, but unless massive mishandling was done to the yeast, fermentation should reach the predicted FG or come a point or two off. I am asuming we are pitching healthy yeasts at proper rates here. I don't get why are you are talking about starter OG rates at all here.

Just remember that your advice is good for someone who has his system down pat and can accurately predict his FG (or uses a fast ferment test), but for the new brewer who might not control every aspect of his setup (ie. mash temps, using extract, etc.), there's a risk of overattenuation with every beer. I was only pointing out that messing with the beer before the hydrometer tells him it is done on consecutive days is dangerous.

I always do a fast ferment test nowadays btw. Then I know for sure that if the satellite finished at 1.010 and I'm at 1.010, it's absolutely, 100% done.

I wasn't intending to be rude, I was trying to correct a statement that wasn't entirely true. So I shouldn't have said not true at all. My apologies.

jfr1111 said:

Fast ferment test

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Refractometers are way easier and you waste less beer. You do realize that this isn't going to give an exact correlation to your beer. I honestly wouldn't even advise using it. But to each his own and if thats what you do and it works for you then rock it. :rockin:

I am asuming we are pitching healthy yeasts at proper rates here. I don't get why are you are talking about starter OG rates at all here.

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I wasn't. I was referencing for those who may have tried a starter before and it fermented way too quickly. My first starter fermented out 90% in 3 days. I may have made it a little too big

The starter OG was to emphasize the fact that there is a direct correlation to % of yeast amplification in the starter to the quantity of available sugars and
oxygen. So, if you make a high gravity starter on a stir plate, you will have a greater % amplification than a lower gravity starter that only has oxygen added at the begininning.

If you want to get more esters out of this yeast you need to not allow as much oxygen as normal because the yeast need to be stressed to really give off the esters.

I'm a biochemist and I was just trying to add some other insight...

jlaureanti said:

If you pitched a healthy quantity of yeast you may be able to over ferment your beer and it will end up way too dry. Just monitor your fermentation and crash cool when you get to your desired gravity.

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jlaureanti said:

If you are trying to hit 1.016 and you rack and 1.016 with out crashing, there will stil be residual yeast in there and they will reduce your gravity past your target point.

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Do some research before taking this advice to heart. You control final gravity by the make up of the grist and mash technique not by cold crashing. The yeast should be allowed to eat all the fermentable sugar in the wort before cold crashing or transferring (secondary, kegging or bottling.) If you cold crash, when the beer returns to higher temperatures there will be yeast left in suspension (even after transferring) that will consume the remaining sugars. If you add priming sugar to that you will have potential bombs on your hands. On a home brew level (no filtering), your yeast will determine the final gravity of your beer. It won’t be a number on a piece of paper.

jlaureanti said:

There is nothing wrong with a 3 day fermentation that conditions for 27 more days. You really don't even have to rack to a secondary. Just crash cool once you have hit your final gravity.

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After the yeast has been allowed to naturally consume the sugars it will work on byproducts of fermentation that can add off flavors to your beer. If you cold crash before this happens the yeast will be dormant and not be allowed to complete this task. After reaching final gravity, you should always give your yeast a few days at fermentation temperature to clean up.



Edit to say:
Back on topic . . .
I'll be brewing a Best Bitter with a third generation of this yeast today. It is a little more difficult to work with than other yeast, but the results are worth it. Like jfr1111 suggests, I just rack from under the krausen and stop before it draws in any of that top yeast layer. No agitation required. With a small beer like you're brewing you should be able to rack it from your primary in well less than two weeks. Just give it a few days at final gravity an go to keg or bottles.

Have you checked out this thread?
British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

jlaureanti said:

Refractometers are way easier and you waste less beer. You do realize that this isn't going to give an exact correlation to your beer. I honestly wouldn't even advise using it. But to each his own and if thats what you do and it works for you then rock it. :rockin:

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I bottle, so I don't want to have any (unkown quantity of) fermentable sugars present when I rack, and priming sugar, and package.

jlaureanti said:

Refractometers are way easier and you waste less beer. You do realize that this isn't going to give an exact correlation to your beer. I honestly wouldn't even advise using it. But to each his own and if thats what you do and it works for you then rock it. :rockin:

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Hydrometers are in use in thousands of micro and macro breweries worldwide to monitor fermentation and FG of beer: if you need precision, you can buy a narrow range one (.995-1.020 if memory serves). Refractometers allow you to take gravity readings on the fly pre-fermentation and they do a fine job of it, but alcohol induced errors are common so they are certainly not ideal for FG measurements.

Fast ferment tests are also used in micro and macro breweries. The article I linked to is not written by some no name homebrewer and has serious reasearch and experimentation behind it. It works, try it sometimes.

For the record I'm a brewer at a local brewery. I have a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology. I'm not saying I know everything or that what you are saying is wrong. I was merely disagreeing with you. I'm glad you all have your opinions but none of you are 100% right in your arguments. I'll be deleting my account. It seems there is no need to try and help those who are already stuck in their ways. Good luck on your future endeavors.

jlaureanti said:

For the record I'm a brewer at a local brewery. I have a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology. I'm not saying I know everything or that what you are saying is wrong. I was merely disagreeing with you. I'm glad you all have your opinions but none of you are 100% right in your arguments. I'll be deleting my account. It seems there is no need to try and help those who are already stuck in their ways. Good luck on your future endeavors.

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That's some funny stuff right there.

jlaureanti said:

For the record I'm a brewer at a local brewery. I have a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology. I'm not saying I know everything or that what you are saying is wrong. I was merely disagreeing with you. I'm glad you all have your opinions but none of you are 100% right in your arguments. I'll be deleting my account. It seems there is no need to try and help those who are already stuck in their ways. Good luck on your future endeavors.

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Well, I know lots of brewers. Some know more than others, and some are world class brewers. But none of them know everything!

I think the point of a forum is discussion. Since discussion involves more than one person, and everyone has their own experiences and opinions, I would say that there isn't just one right way to do things. Some ways are much better techniques than others, of course, but dismissing everyone else's experience that doesn't jibe with yours may not mean that WE are the ones "stuck in their ways".

I'm just sayin'.

You can stay and be a part of homebrewing discussions, or you can have a snit and leave. That's entirely up to you. Everyone is always welcome in this forum but it may not be the forum for everyone.

Thanks for the advice guys. Regarding crash cooling: I've never tried it before. Since I will be bottling, is this something that I should avoid entirely, or is it still a good idea if I'm sure that I've reached the desired FG?

@AnOldUR:
Thanks for sharing your experience and for that thread link. There's some really good info in there.

mfvreeland said:

Regarding crash cooling: I've never tried it before. Since I will be bottling, is this something that I should avoid entirely, or is it still a good idea if I'm sure that I've reached the desired FG?

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The way I see it, cold crashing helps clear your beer by dropping out the heavier products of the brewing process (hops, break material, yeast . . .) This means that many of the more flocculent yeast will end up with the rest of the trub, in a nice compact layer at the bottom of your fermenter. Where brewers new to cold crashing get concerned is that they think there will not be enough yeast to ferment their priming sugar and carbonate the beer. This really isn't an issue. There will be plenty of healthy, but less flocculent yeast still in suspension to get the job done. The longer you cold crash for, the more yeast will drop, so (if I'm bottling) 2-3 days is the time I use for crashing. You may find that your beer takes a little longer to carbonate, but it will get there. I bottle while the beer is still cold and then store the bottles at room temperature for 3-4 weeks (longer for bigger beers.)

jlaureanti said:

I'll be deleting my account. It seems there is no need to try and help those who are already stuck in their ways. Good luck on your future endeavors.

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I'm with Yooper. I may not agree with everything I read on HBT (and sometimes express my disagreement ), but there are often things to be learned regardless of that. Everyone’s contributions are welcome, so stick around and continue being part of the discussion.