Stuck lager fermentation or relax have a homebrew?

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newtobrew5

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Facts:

NB oktoberfest extract kit, wyeast 2633 oktoberfest blend.
SG 1.065.
Pitched at around 56 with a 2 liter starter (I know, I know, but I didn't have the ability, time or vessel, for anything larger). Fermentation took off pretty quickly.
Primary fermentation was at about 52.
I did a D rest at around 65 after about two weeks (fridge is at a neighbors so I can't be too picky about taking readings and picking the perfect time to do the rest). I brought the temp back down to 52 after three days or so (wasn't going to be able to transfer it to lagering keg for another 3 days and didn't want to leave it warm that long).
This weekend was a full three weeks in primary and I was intending to transfer it to a corny to lager. I took a reading and I was at 1.020. By my calculations FG should be around 1.015 or so. Tasted good, but a little sweet. I aborted the transfer, and left the primary in the fridge and bumped up the temp to 56 or so. I did notice some bubbles in the airlock when I first opened the fridge.

Questions:

1) I have heard of a dreaded 1.020 curse. I thought given the d rest, I should be at FG by now. Am I worrying too much, and lager fermentations are that slow, and by next week I should be fine?

2) Was it o.k. to turn the temp up a little bit?

3) What do I do if it is stuck at 1.020. Keg and lager and have a sweet beer? Pitch more yeast? I saw some sort of other enzyme packet solution, should I do that?

4) I'm a beginning brewer (2nd batch, 1st lager) (as if you can't tell), so any other constructive criticisms of my methods will be taken well.

And yes, I realize I'm breaking all sorts of rules by not relaxing enough and by not taking two gravity readings three days apart (I will take another next weekend), but I have searched other threads and nothing is exactly on point, and I'm a little paranoid about this brew because in theory it is being featured at our annual oktoberfest party (and was kind of the reason I got into homebrewing).
 
Wow, lager for your second brew. Rather ambitious! :rockin:

What likely happened is a combination of the 1.020 extract curse and the fact that you only gave it three weeks. Ales in the 60 degree range will be done in 2-3 weeks. When doing lagers I do the usual business of low-to-mid 50's until the beer is roughly 2/3 attenuated, then D-rest for a few days until it's fully attenuated and then it's lager time in the 40's.

Just give it time... you have plenty of time until Oktoberfest festivities. Trust me... I brewed one in March and am trying to wait until harvest season as per tradition... it's kind of killing me right now. And just for another reference point of how I get down, brewed it in late March and it's still on the original yeast cake. Tasted it yesterday and it's amazing. Will probably still give it another couple weeks to a month until it's racked to a keg and allowed to go on to it's next phase in life.

Basically the moral is to have patience during the whole process, not just the lagering stage.
 
I think what did you in here was dropping the temperature from 65 back to 52 before hitting your FG. The rule of thumb I've read and heard often repeated is fermentation temps can rise, but not drop. Once the temperature starts to drop, the yeast don't know that you're only dropping to 52, so they start going dormant and doing other things like flocculating to protect themselves in anticipation of very cold temps.

I've also been reading into how to make larger starters for high gravity lagers even though I don't have a huge 6L erlenmeyer or a desire to make a low gravity lager for repitching. One thing you can do is make your 2L starter, chill and decant the starter beer, and then pour 2/3 or so of the yeast into a separate vessel, and then pour 2L of new wort into your flask, repeating as necessary. This seems like a really crappy way to step up a starter to me, but it seems like it would work. Alternatively, you could use your carboy as the 2nd step-up starter vessel after your 2L first step is finished, pitch it into 2 gallons of starter in your primary fermenter. as long as you're just making yeast, room temperature is still just fine.

anyway, those are some options i've been thinking about for my own upcoming traditional bock that you might consider.

To hit your final gravity you might consider just raising the temp back into the mid 60s. I'm personally a little dubious about pitching new/more yeast towards the end of fermentation, given the risk of infection and relatively low chances of the additional yeast solving the FG problem alone.
 
newtobrew5 said:
Facts:

NB oktoberfest extract kit, wyeast 2633 oktoberfest blend.
SG 1.065.
Pitched at around 56 with a 2 liter starter (I know, I know, but I didn't have the ability, time or vessel, for anything larger). Fermentation took off pretty quickly.
Primary fermentation was at about 52.
I did a D rest at around 65 after about two weeks (fridge is at a neighbors so I can't be too picky about taking readings and picking the perfect time to do the rest). I brought the temp back down to 52 after three days or so (wasn't going to be able to transfer it to lagering keg for another 3 days and didn't want to leave it warm that long).
This weekend was a full three weeks in primary and I was intending to transfer it to a corny to lager. I took a reading and I was at 1.020. By my calculations FG should be around 1.015 or so. Tasted good, but a little sweet. I aborted the transfer, and left the primary in the fridge and bumped up the temp to 56 or so. I did notice some bubbles in the airlock when I first opened the fridge.

Questions:

1) I have heard of a dreaded 1.020 curse. I thought given the d rest, I should be at FG by now. Am I worrying too much, and lager fermentations are that slow, and by next week I should be fine?

2) Was it o.k. to turn the temp up a little bit?

3) What do I do if it is stuck at 1.020. Keg and lager and have a sweet beer? Pitch more yeast? I saw some sort of other enzyme packet solution, should I do that?

4) I'm a beginning brewer (2nd batch, 1st lager) (as if you can't tell), so any other constructive criticisms of my methods will be taken well.

And yes, I realize I'm breaking all sorts of rules by not relaxing enough and by not taking two gravity readings three days apart (I will take another next weekend), but I have searched other threads and nothing is exactly on point, and I'm a little paranoid about this brew because in theory it is being featured at our annual oktoberfest party (and was kind of the reason I got into homebrewing).
Click to expand...

Underpitching is always a threat with lagers, but especially with non-AG lagers. If you are using extracts you have to, have to, have to pitch a huge amount of yeast, which you failed to do. So lesson 1: next time take the time to make a huge (like 4 or 4.5 litre) starter, let it ferment out (room temp is okay), then chill and decant.

As to your question about whether you have hit FG, I would expect so after three weeks at not-particularly-cold fermentation temps. 1.020 is not that big a deal. You might consider dry hopping to balance out some of that sweetness.

Bubbles in your airlock at this point are probably the result of CO2 coming out of solution at warmer temperatures, not additional fermentation--but I could be wrong on that.

I definitely wouldn't pitch any amylase enzyme to try to squeeze out a few more gravity points. Not worth the effort, and could thin your beer out too much. More yeast probably isn't worth the effort, although you could, I suppose, make another big starter with another pack of 2633, then pitch that at room temp to see if it will go any lower. I wouldn't bother.

In summary, I wouldn't sweat your 1.020 beer too much. That's very close to FG (and within the FG style guidelines for some beers) so just take what you can from the experience and proceed. If you are really worried about the quality of this beer, you still have time to brew another batch before Oktoberfest (late Sept/early Oct). Lagering time is not as important IMO as a lot of people think.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for all of the replies. This forum always amazes.

Based on the foregoing, I think I'll just sit and wait until next weekend and then take another reading just for knowledge purposes. If it's at 1.020 I'm still transfering to the keg and will begin lagering, and I'll just have a little sweeter beer (though given the relatively high SG, it still will have about 6% ABV so it's not all bad). I might move up the temp a little more for the week to see if that awakens any of the yeasts.

As to a few of the comments:
1) yes, I was a little ambitious trying to brew a lager on the second go around, and worried myself a little but a) I'm generally pretty all or nothing and b) I found out a neighbor had two corny kegs and a temp controlled kegerator that were just sitting in his garage that he was willing to let me use. Amazingly, he'd never homebrewed, and only used them for filling up from the local brewco.
2) my wife hates hoppy beers, and this one already tastes o.k., so I think I'll pass on dry hopping for fear that it might mess it up more. plus, wouldn't dry hopping mainly give me aroma, but not bitterness to offset the sweet?
3) aforesaid wife will kill me if I do another batch, especially given that I'm brewing another 5 gallon batch in a couple of weeks for the party. The plan is to have 5 gallons of oktoberfest and 5 gallon of a psuedo blue moon clone to appease the BMC folks (though I'm not against blue moon myself). These will then be hooked up to a dual tap tower.

Thanks again for all the responses. I'll try to post the FG and the final results from the party (an empty keg will really be the best sign that it went o.k.)
 
For your next lager I really would consider dry yeast (rehydrated). You will pretty much guarantee enough cells to do the job right and not have to mess around with a starter. I've used S-23 and W-34/70 with great results, and would consider the latter to be my house yeast strain. Yes, I do use liquids as well, with huge starters (chilled and decanted) for my lagers, but I have the benefit of an industrial stir plate and 6 litre flask.
 
osagedr said:
For your next lager I really would consider dry yeast (rehydrated). You will pretty much guarantee enough cells to do the job right and not have to mess around with a starter. I've used S-23 and W-34/70 with great results, and would consider the latter to be my house yeast strain. Yes, I do use liquids as well, with huge starters (chilled and decanted) for my lagers, but I have the benefit of an industrial stir plate and 6 litre flask.
Click to expand...
THIS! Used W-34/70 on my Oktoberfest that's lagering as we speak and, like I said earlier, has been sitting on the yeast cake since late March and it is turning out deeeelish. Also, saved space and time on the huge starters. I just pitched 4 packets and was good to go :mug:

Also, if you want something that will appease BMC drinkers and yourself (I know.... crazy, right?!) make BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde or BierMuncher's Cream of Three Crops Ale.

Both are light and refreshing but still delicious. Personally, I'd recommend the blonde for yourself. However, if you did the Cream of Three Crops and told the BMCer's that it was, in fact, a BMC they would have no idea... you know, if you did it right ;) Either could be done with lager yeast if you wish.
 
Thanks for the suggestion on the dry yeast. I'll have to try that.

And Reno, apparently you are a mind reader. After the blue moon clone using 1056, or maybe I'll try a S-04 or nottingham (already have the extract that will work for this), I was planning on pitching a blonde onto the cake so I had a brew around that both me and the SWMBO could enjoy. I've looked at a bunch of BierMuncher's recipes. They seem to be universally respected.

I was kind of thinking of stepping it up to all grain with the blonde, but I have limited time (two small kids and demanding job), limited space (garage was converted to another room and have limited backyard space) and limited goodwill in the account with the SWMBO (probably don't need to explain this one). I was thinking of borrowing from our aussie friends and doing the brew in a bag method. I've seen good reports about the quality, as well as time and cost savings with this method.

I should give the SWMBO a lot of credit for putting up with me. I've been trying to get her into the homebrew thing (at least enjoying the results). She was mainly a BMC drinker who then turned to wine. Imagine my amazement when she sipped off my La Trappe quad and told me she really liked it. I have to build up a little more supply before I brew a Belgian though, as I won't be able to wait out the aging.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic, and thanks again for the replies.
 
Oh the off-topic doesn't matter... pretty enjoyable to read :D BIAB will do you fine.

And it's nice to see SWMBO getting into it. Luckily my SWMBO get into it easily and I didn't have to drag her kicking a screaming... probably because I started brewing shortly after we started dating so it's always been there. Plus the in-depth beer knowledge helps considerably at her restaurant (who wouldn't want to buy more pints from a chick who knows a lot about beer and has a bountiful rack? :D)
 
not to be a topper, but my SWMBO 1) "made" me get directv so we could get the nfl ticket to watch her team and 2) put off a 5 yr anniversary trip to instead go to seattle to watch her team play the seahawks. i think we both have keepers.

i might be able to sneak in a brewery tour in seattle, so any suggestions from anybody out would be appreciated. Pyramid, Pikes and Elysian are on the shortlist. Sounds like Red Hook has gone the way of the BMC's and is a little bit too far without a car.
 
quick update for those interested. I took another reading on saturday and got a 1.016 reading, so it went down a few more points. It tasted like a flat, slightly warm marzen so that was good too. I decided to still transfer over to keg even though I couldn't confirm it was done, since I was close to average attenuation for the yeast and my neighbor was getting sick of me constantly breaking into his garage to check on my home brew that's in his fridge. all in all a good result. now hopefully i don't mess anything up with the kegging part. btw i wouldn't necessarily suggest making two large steps in your processes in one brew, i.e. lagering and kegging for the first time on the same brew, as it makes it kind of difficult to track errors, but then again, i'm too impatient to space it out.
 

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