Melanoidins...again

Maybe this should go in the science or techniques threads, but i'm not really sure.

Anywho...My question is about melanoidin development. I understand the concept of melanoidins, but I was thinking about where they are usually found, or at least where I usually find them, German beers. I know they are obtained from vienna, munich malts and specific melanoidin malt, but my question is, can they be formed from long boils using other malts..ie..other toasted, cara, or such malts? I know the formation of melanoidins is at least fairly popular and traditional (I think) in German styles, and may not be the best idea to try for other styles, but I just want to know if certain malts are better at producing melanoidins than others.

Thanks to all

I am not positive, but I think melanoidins are produced from Maillard reaction when you boil.

Melanoidins are products of Maillard reactions. That is non enzymatic browning that occurs between a sugar and an amino acid. Any kilned malt will have a level of melanoidins. The darker you get, it typically turns more into "char" than melanoidins. That is because they are basically toasted. Melanoidins are also what make toast different than bread, and why we brown, or sear meat before it is cooked through. They can be developed in long boils. If you are trying to increase melanoidins in a beer it is much easier to do it by adjusting the grain bill than the boil though.

Brew strong has a very good episode on this subject: Brew Strong Melanoidins

Edcculus said:

If you are trying to increase melanoidins in a beer it is much easier to do it by adjusting the grain bill than the boil though.

Brew strong has a very good episode on this subject: Brew Strong Melanoidins

Click to expand...

Right...and this could be achieved by using malts which give better melanoidin yield, correct? Such as vienna, munich etc..correct? I really just want to know if i use malts other than vienna, munich, melanoidin malt, can I still get melanoidins, even if in smaller ammounts. (I don't plan on trying this, just curious)

melanoidins can be developed through decoction as well.....IIRC.

batfishdog37 said:

Right...and this could be achieved by using malts which give better melanoidin yield, correct? Such as vienna, munich etc..correct? I really just want to know if i use malts other than vienna, munich, melanoidin malt, can I still get melanoidins, even if in smaller ammounts. (I don't plan on trying this, just curious)

Click to expand...

Yea, any kilned malt will contain a degree of melanoidin. Even crystals will. The only difference there is the sweetness they impart also.

English Pale malts (Maris Otter etc), are kilned more than American 2 row. Therefore they will impart a degree more melanoidins to the finished beer than the latter. Thats why they are described often as "biscuty" or "bready".

Its not that malts necessarily give BETTER yeild, they give more controlled yeild. Adding 1/8 melanoidin malt is a lot easier than boiling for 30 extra minutes and accounting for the extra boil off, extra gas etc.

Edcculus said:

Yea, any kilned malt will contain a degree of melanoidin. Even crystals will. The only difference there is the sweetness they impart also.

English Pale malts (Maris Otter etc), are kilned more than American 2 row. Therefore they will impart a degree more melanoidins to the finished beer than the latter. Thats why they are described often as "biscuty" or "bready".

Its not that malts necessarily give BETTER yeild, they give more controlled yeild. Adding 1/8 melanoidin malt is a lot easier than boiling for 30 extra minutes and accounting for the extra boil off, extra gas etc.

Click to expand...

Cool, exactly what i was looking for, thank you good sir

And one thing people overlook is that melanoidins are a color, not a flavor. Now, the same Maillard reactions that create melanoidins can also create flavors, but the melanoidins themselves are not a flavor.

Denny said:

And one thing people overlook is that melanoidins are a color, not a flavor. Now, the same Maillard reactions that create melanoidins can also create flavors, but the melanoidins themselves are not a flavor.

Click to expand...

Cool, thanks. So...here's another question. What are the compounds which contribute to the flavor produced from the maillard reaction? Do they have a special relationship to the melanoidins? That is...are they formed together/need each other to properly function/develop in some way. I want to experiment with this now and need to know what I am getting when I boil longer. One more thing..ha ha..If I use melanoidin malt, I assume I would not get the flavor compounds from the maillard reaction unless I boiled longer to actually achieve it.

Melanoidin malt does add flavor...that's one thing that leads to the confusion. As to exact compounds, I don't have that info with me at the moment. I advise all brewers to get ahold of a copy of Harold McGee's fantastic food science book "On Food and Cooking", which covers a lot of this.

Denny

You are going to have to qualify that statement , as even the BJCP 2008 guide refers to Melanoidin Flavors. Under Bock....

Comments: Decoction mashing and long boiling plays an important part of flavor development, as it enhances the caramel and melanoidin flavor aspects of the malt.

Click to expand...

I agree with where you are coming from as Melanoidins are the color change from roasting or toasting as the sugars change.....

But as we use this in our brewing literature with gay abandon, it is obviously not fully understood yet.

All I can say is that I think the BJCP is incorrect on this, and I'm not alone in that belief.