StophJS
Well-Known Member
This is scary.
Easy Stove-Top Pasteurizing - With Pics
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This technique works very well, thanks for sharing it!!!!!! I had some raspberry wine that I had made years ago and never done anything with. (amazingly it was still good) decided to bottle it only to discover that the fermentation had stuck some where along the way and bottling it was just what was needed to start it back up. So I popped the corks on the 5 wine bottles and transferred it in to 10 beer bottles and capped it. Each day I popped open a bottle, only to check the carb levels. After checking I recapped it and put a date on the lid. Took me 5 days to get it where I wanted it and then I pasteurized it with the technique described in this thread worked like a champ!!!
Something I learned... may not apply to all but something to consider. As the pressure was building in the bottles there was a small ring of foam at the top of the liquid and I could see small bubbles floating to the top until the carbonation reached the perfect amount then I could no longer see bubbles rising to the top. My guess is that is when the pressure reached the perfect carbonation, it also forced the CO2 to dissolve directly in to the liquid and the bubbles stopped rising to the top.
Something I learned... may not apply to all but something to consider. As the pressure was building in the bottles there was a small ring of foam at the top of the liquid and I could see small bubbles floating to the top until the carbonation reached the perfect amount then I could no longer see bubbles rising to the top. My guess is that is when the pressure reached the perfect carbonation, it also forced the CO2 to dissolve directly in to the liquid and the bubbles stopped rising to the top.
OP
OP
No. This is one method to use to make a: 1) semi-sweet 2) bottle conditioned and 3) sparkling cider. Another method can be found here EASY RECIPE: How to make Homemade Hard Apple Cider - Make your own Hard Apple Cider
OK, so I give this a try and like it but...
I took some temp readings and found that the water temp dropped when the bottles were added. After 5 min the water temp was down to 150 deg. I doubt that the cider temp gets much above 150 deg and who knows for how long.
Is this really enough to kill the yeast and any bacteria?
I took some temp readings and found that the water temp dropped when the bottles were added. After 5 min the water temp was down to 150 deg. I doubt that the cider temp gets much above 150 deg and who knows for how long.
Is this really enough to kill the yeast and any bacteria?
OP
OP
Yes, I've used this successfully for dozens of batches, not a single bottle bomb.
divi2323
Well-Known Member
I bottled 45+ bottles and no bombs here either. Just from reading the replies here and in other posts, most of the people leave out a step in pappers process or modify it to what they think is appropriate.
The key notes are that you should follow the process exactly as written, making sure to keep a very close eye on both bottle fill level, carbonation level (pet bottle or daily cracking open of bottles to test), and strict monitoring of water temp. If you follow these you won't have bottle bombs.
The last thing is you should do this with eye protection, and its a good idea to put a lid on your stew pot with a bungee cord holding it down. An old bottle with a crack in it can still bust, and this prevents glass shrapnel and cider from flying all over your kitchen.
The key notes are that you should follow the process exactly as written, making sure to keep a very close eye on both bottle fill level, carbonation level (pet bottle or daily cracking open of bottles to test), and strict monitoring of water temp. If you follow these you won't have bottle bombs.
The last thing is you should do this with eye protection, and its a good idea to put a lid on your stew pot with a bungee cord holding it down. An old bottle with a crack in it can still bust, and this prevents glass shrapnel and cider from flying all over your kitchen.
KemP130
Well-Known Member
You also have to remember, it's not just the temperature that is pasteurizing, but also the internal pressure in the bottle.
If you ever took physics recall the gas laws. (When heated, gasses build pressure when they cannot increase in volume.) This means that during pasteurization, the gasses in the bottle build pressure, like a pressure cooker.
I have used Pepper's method and don't have a single bomb among the 300 bottles I have already done (if you don't count the two bottles that bombed while pasteurizing them), but there is a BUT.
Pepper does not exactly describe the size of the pot relative to the bottles and that has quite an impact on temperature - especially if you switch off heat while putting in the bottles. If you have a smaller pot with less water and put in the same amount of bottles, they will cool down the water much lower than in a larger pot with more water and thus more inherent heat capacity.
I use a big pot (my wife's jam cooking pot) and still put in only 6-7 bottles so my temperature does not drop under 165 - which I feel good about after reading the Cornell paper I cited earlier.
I will do my next batch with lower temperatures (170) but without switching off the heat (since I have an insert that keeps the bottles from the bottom) and will try to keep the 170 constant for the 10 minutes. No idea whether it will work but I will keep you posted ... if that goes well, it should be less dependable on pot size because a smaller pot will reach the original temperature faster.
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
We had our first “incident” last night. I have been using a variation with great success (until now) where I was doing 8-10 bottles at a time in the sink, using hot tap water (135* from the tap) then giving it that last temperature boost with some boiling water. I normally have my thermometer in there, but I got lazy last bottling session, about two weeks ago and proceeded despite not being able to find my thermometer. Used the same process as usual, but one batch didn’t take. I thankfully labeled the boxes, so when fiancé moved a stack of cases and heard a hissing, I was able to find the batch and open them all. 12 bottles wasted, and one bottle lost. That last one was my fault though, I thought I would have some fun and take it outside, shake it up, and let it geyser across the backyard. When I applied pressure to the cap, it shot off like a rocket, along with the very top of the bottle. No injuries, and it flew a good 45 feet! Needless to say, not one of my brightest moments.
Lessons learned?
ALWAYS monitor your time and temperature.
ALWAYS take a sample a few days later to verify they have not continued to carb.
NEVER, and I mean NEVER!!! Shake a dangerous bottle in an attempt for a cheap kick. Those suckers have a little of power behind them, and had someone been in the way, we would be dealing with some serious injuries.
Learn from my mistakes, be safe. Im still comfortable with my sink method. I have pasteurized a few hundred bottles with no incident, but I will never cut corners again. That is scary stuff.
Lessons learned?
ALWAYS monitor your time and temperature.
ALWAYS take a sample a few days later to verify they have not continued to carb.
NEVER, and I mean NEVER!!! Shake a dangerous bottle in an attempt for a cheap kick. Those suckers have a little of power behind them, and had someone been in the way, we would be dealing with some serious injuries.
Learn from my mistakes, be safe. Im still comfortable with my sink method. I have pasteurized a few hundred bottles with no incident, but I will never cut corners again. That is scary stuff.
Thanks for sharing!
Isometric
Active Member
Has anyone got a method of killing the yeast in plastic bottle while keeper the carbonation. PET plastic bottles when heated release antimony and acetaldelahydes.
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
Are we talking a full batch of plastic bottles? Or just a few? If it is a few, I would just chill them. If you have a full batch, well, I guess I dont have any good suggestion for you
You might be able to get away with a long pasteurizing time with a lower temperature, but it will take a LONG time, and Im not sure at what temperature the PET bottles start releasing chemicals.KemP130
Well-Known Member
Just curious, has anyone tried this with wine bottles, or will the heat just push the corks out?
divi2323
Well-Known Member
I put my finished bottles into a cooler and close the lid to protect against any that didn't kill the yeast during pasteurizing. Plus easy cleanup if something did go wrong.
Not sure about pasturization, but PET's can take a heck of a lot more preasure... Although if your goal is sweet carbonated you proably need to pasturize, although a sorbate and sulfating might inhibit enough yeast growth that you get some carb and then the active ones die and don't reproduce.
(in short no).
pasturize? keg and force carb? the bottle?
If the preasure is to high, the cork will come out - fortunatly since other wise you break the bottle. I think wine bottles have a lower preasure threashold than beer. Champagne does have higer and plastic PET bottles, while they can break are higher still than Champagne.
That said, I think you can get a light carbonation - infact I have - in a wine bottle. Not up to the beer/soda level, but not still either. It was accidental, and I never tried to pasturize that bottle. Also if the bottle is stored upright, the air might slip past the cork, even if below ejection threshold.
Pickled_Pepper
Well-Known Member
Are you wanting to pasteurize "still" cider?
KemP130
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
That was my plan, I was just curious as to if the air space in the bottle would build enough pressure during pasteurization to pop the cork out, otherwise my plan was to bring the cider to 190 degrees in a pot and just dump bottles full of ice in to cool it, then bottle.
Pickled_Pepper
Well-Known Member
I always thought you would use chemicals to keep it still and stabilize it (as in wine production) before going into bottles with corks. Never thought about using pasteurization to substitute this process.
OP
OP
You can't stabilize it if its in mid-fermentation (still semi-dry or semi-sweet). The yeast will just keep on going. You could ferment to dry, rack, stabilize, then back sweeten. There would be no need for pasteurizing then.
Pickled_Pepper
Well-Known Member
Thanks Pappers, that was my point. I didn't think you'd want to put corks on something that wasn't completely done with fermentation.
Why not? That's how BMC sell their beer - they run it through heat tunnels to pasturize it - see ma no chemicals. I'm not sure that it would work well with corks, but I'm not sure it would be impossible - although if it is already still, and done, then the question becomes 'why pasturize.' And the only answer I ahve is to reduce sulfites and sorbates in your diet, although, the alcohol is probably as bad, and there is sorbate in soda. And sulfer in just about everything we eat
Pickled_Pepper
Well-Known Member
Don't they also force carb their beer instead of letting carbonation occur naturally in the can/bottle?
I think that sulfites also occur naturally in apple cider...regardless, the article is about how to retain sweetness in "carbonated" cider. Since wine corks typically aren't used for holding back carbonation, I didn't see the need to pasteurize in them.
If you don't want chems, you could always just consume them fairly quickly to keep from having to stabilize correct?
smyrnaquince
Well-Known Member
In a pressure cooker, the higher than atmospheric pressure inside the cooker will take the internal temperature above boiling because you have a heat source that is also above boiling temperature. For bottles in a water bath as described in this thread, the temperature inside the bottles will never get above the temperature of the surrounding water, which is the heat source for the bottles.
The temperature does not need to rise above temperature the surrounding water for the gas to cause an increase in pressure... A high degree of carbonation and water higher than 190 can still cause bottles to explode.
I tried this on a 1/2 gal batch and it was carbed to a high level, similar to champaigne, after 5 days, I put the 4 remaining bottles in a small cooler, filled the cooler with hot tap water, brought some water to a boil took it off the heat waited 2 min drained the hot tap water and added to previously boiled water (didn't take a temp), and 5 minutes later one bottle exploded, and few minutes later another one blew swinging the lid of the cooler open and still shooting the still capped neck of the bottle (Guiness extra stout bottle) almost to the ceiling.
So this can certainly still be a cause for concern and potential danger, and danger increses with change of temperature and degree of carbonation, though is reccomended procedures are followed this probably still safe.
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
I will admit, I know you have way more experience, but are you certain?
If you cold crash it a few times and use sorborate, I would think you could knock enough of the yeast out of suspension, then the sorborate would cease reproduction, killing the yeast off in a couple days.
Personally, if you want still cider (boring!) ferment it out, stabilize, back sweeten.
In some ways you are both right because the cold crashing temporarily "stops" the fermentation. The cold crashing is the key to drop most of the yeast out of suspension. a good rule of thumb is if the wine is clear you can stabilize with chemicals, but with that said I personally hate chemicals so I am all about pasteurization. Also pasteurization insures that what is in the bottle is sterol which significantly increases shelf life which is key if the ABV is less than 10%
OP
OP
Yes, that's what I thought we were talking about - using only the chemicals to stop the fermentation. But stopping the fermentation by cold crashing will usually work. Then you can rack and stabilize. I've never used this method with sparkling cider, only still.
smyrnaquince
Well-Known Member
Sorry. You are right. The talk of a pressure cooker had me thinking about the temps inside a pressure cooker, not the pressure.
I agree that raising the temperature of a closed, fixed-volume container (e.g., a capped beer bottle) will raise its internal pressure.
Yes, I agree that this is cause for concern.
That right there is the key. If you take a few hours and read the entire thread, every single breakage was the result of a mistake:
1. over carbonation
2. wrong bottles used
3. defect in the bottle prior to bottling
4. hot bottles coming in contact with something cold
5. the directions weren't followed as described using a thermometer to insure the proper temp before and after the 10 minute soak time.
About the only variation I have seen to the original post that is a good one is to preheat the bottles with hot tap water. this reduces the temperature change in the glass AND preheats the liquid in side which allows you to do more bottles at once and reduces the temp drop in the 10 minutes. I did that on my last batch, I pre soaked 9 bottle in hot tap water, about 130º then when I put the bottles in my 190º water bath after 10 minutes the temp had only dropped to 175º
UpstateMike
Well-Known Member
Why you can not rush this procedure...
Last weekend I was helping my Brew Buddy pasteurize his first batch of cider. He has done canning before, so he has a nice large pot to use. Unfortunately he also has some preconceived ideas.
He didn't like that after we did a batch, we had to let the water get back up to temp. "Its taking too long" he whined. "I'm going to leave the stove on low while the bottles are pasteurizing, that will keep the temp more even."
I warned against it, but he said that is how he did his canning, and it would be fine. I said ok, more out of morbid curiosity than anything.
So, the waterbath up to 190, we put in 8 bottles, one of them being the plastic test bottle. He turned the stove down to 3, and we waited the 10 minutes.
After 10 minutes we return to the pot. "I smell cider!" he says. We remove the top of the pot and look in. The plastic bottle is leaking from the cap, there is no headspace left. We remove the bottles and set them on a towel on the counter. Before we get more bottles ready to go in, BAM! One glass bottle blew from the bottom or side.
"Now, can we follow the instructions?' I said. He agreed. There were no more bottle bombs that day.
Last weekend I was helping my Brew Buddy pasteurize his first batch of cider. He has done canning before, so he has a nice large pot to use. Unfortunately he also has some preconceived ideas.
He didn't like that after we did a batch, we had to let the water get back up to temp. "Its taking too long" he whined. "I'm going to leave the stove on low while the bottles are pasteurizing, that will keep the temp more even."
I warned against it, but he said that is how he did his canning, and it would be fine. I said ok, more out of morbid curiosity than anything.
So, the waterbath up to 190, we put in 8 bottles, one of them being the plastic test bottle. He turned the stove down to 3, and we waited the 10 minutes.
After 10 minutes we return to the pot. "I smell cider!" he says. We remove the top of the pot and look in. The plastic bottle is leaking from the cap, there is no headspace left. We remove the bottles and set them on a towel on the counter. Before we get more bottles ready to go in, BAM! One glass bottle blew from the bottom or side.
"Now, can we follow the instructions?' I said. He agreed. There were no more bottle bombs that day.
Important question: did you just put the bottles into the pot without anything keeping the from touching the bottom?
I successfully did a batch two weeks ago where I heated the water to 170 and leave the heat on for the full 10 minutes but I bought an insert that keeps the bottles from touching the bottom. No bombs during cooking or since ...
The end temperature of the water was 170 again so this method is even warmer then the original 190 start with heat off (that resultet in 160 end) and much faster since I can put in new bottles immediately.
But I already suspected the insert to be crucial, your post seems to indicate that
BelMamba
UpstateMike
Well-Known Member
There was a thin wire rack that I guess is used for lowering and raising canning jars in and out of the bath. That sat right on the bottom of the pot and the diameter of the wire is about the same as a coathanger. I didn't think it would offer much protection, I used it to help get bottles out of the bath.
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
Why are you using a plastic test bottle? Im curious, because the plastic is not going to be indicative of the temp in a glass bottle, and as you just witnessed, the plastic will fail.
Several of us have been there now, thankfully you arent writing about your recent trip to the local hospital.
UpstateMike
Well-Known Member
The plastic bottle is used as an indicator of the level of carbonation prior to pasteurizing. When it gets to the right firmness, I know that it is time to pasteurize the batch. I usually drink the plastic bottle while pasteurizing, but my Brew Buddy insisted on putting it in the bath.
naeco
Well-Known Member
Smart move ... I will do that so I don`t lose a couple bottles checking for right level of carbonation.
There is nothing wrong with using a plastic bottle, but there is no reason that you should "loose a couple of bottles checking for right level of carbonation"
When I did mine rather than drink the uncapped brew, I simply recapped it and put a date on the lid so I new which ones I had checked which allowed me to always open a fresh one. Took me 5 days (my fermentation was not very active) to get where I wanted, then I pasteurized. Even the ones that had been opened had plenty of carbonation. Some people might say that uncapping and recapping is just asking some bacteria to get in the bottles. while this is true I was extremely carful which limited exposure, the alcohol and acidity of the beverage will also help and any bugs that make it through that will not make it through the pasteurization so I don't think it is an issue.
naeco
Well-Known Member
OK but don't you lose some carbonation just by opening a bottle so that when you pasteurize it, it would be significantly less carbed that the unopened bottles ?
You are going to loose some, but I found it to be insignificant. The one that I opened recapped and pasteurized on the same day still had plenty of CO2 when I drank it. Think of it like this if you have a bottle of pop and you open it take a drink and then reseal the bottle, even if you weight until the next day to have some more there will still be plenty of carbonation in it.
