British Mild/Ordinary Bitter w/ Pacific Northwest. (NW) Ingredients

I would really like to make a British Mild or Ordinary Bitter that uses NW ingredients. I could use some help, because I am not really as familiar with the ingredients as I would like to be.

I was hoping that I could use NW Pale Malt instead of Marris Otter. Does NW Pale Malt have some of the MO characteristics, or is somewhere more in between regular Pale and MO?

Is there a NW hop like East Kent Goldings that I could use?

I was planning on using British Ale Yeast, but I was hoping that there is a US yeast that will give me similar flavors. I think US-05 and California Ale yeasts finish too dry, is this right?

Thanks!
Pico

What is NW? Northwest? Is that a malting company?

If you are using domestic 2-row, I would mix in a little domestic munich to help with that graininess and maltiness you get from the mariss otter.

Domestic goldings are very good, a little more floral than east kent. Domestic fuggle or willamette would work well, too.

I think the california ale yeast will work just fine.

So, yeah...use a large portion of munich, mash at around 154°F, and be ready for some yumminess.

DeathBrewer said:

What is NW? Northwest? Is that a malting company?

If you are using domestic 2-row, I would mix in a little domestic munich to help with that graininess and maltiness you get from the mariss otter.

Domestic goldings are very good, a little more floral than east kent. Domestic fuggle or willamette would work well, too.

I think the california ale yeast will work just fine.

So, yeah...use a large portion of munich, mash at around 154°F, and be ready for some yumminess.

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Sorry, to clarify, when I say I want to use "NW Ingredients", I mean ingredients that are local to the Pacific Northwest. "NW Pale Malt" is a product that Great Western Malting offers. Here is the comparison to 2-row:

Premium Two Row: Our traditional premium quality two-row malt. We utilize several Western varieties to maintain stringent quality standards. Color is 1.8° to 2.2°.

Northwest Pale Ale: Great Western’s higher-color two-row malt. This product is a well-modified Western grown two-row with colors ranging from 2.6° to 3.0° (ASBC).

I think you're on the money with the Pale Malt sub. Maybe toast 8-16 ounces for a bit in your oven to get some of the crackery, bready goodness for which Maris Otter is famous.

+1 on US Goldings or US Fuggles.

If you ferment S-05 or other American Ale yeasts on the warm side of their recommended temperature range, you'll get more of the fruit esters for which English ales are famous. Wyeast 1272, Wyeast 1332, WLP041 and WLP051 also have fruitier ester profiles than the standard "US" strains (S-05, Wyeast 1056, WLP001) or Nottingham. I used to use Cal V (WLP051) for damn near everything and just adjust the temperature to encourage (or discourage) ester production.

Bob

I think that the one described as 2.6-3.0 would work well, maybe toss in a slight amount (2%?) of biscuit for a bit more breadyness. DB is right (as per usual) about the hops, although I would probably still use an english ale yeast, I just don't think that american ale yeasts are quite estery enough to duplicate that english ale yeast character. if you must use american yeasts though, I'd say go for ones that have just a bit more character than the WLP001, like the WLP008 (East Coast Ale), WY1332 (NorthWest Ale), WY1272 (American Ale II).

NQ3X said:

I think you're on the money with the Pale Malt sub. Maybe toast 8-16 ounces for a bit in your oven to get some of the crackery, bready goodness for which Maris Otter is famous.

+1 on US Goldings or US Fuggles.

If you ferment S-05 or other American Ale yeasts on the warm side of their recommended temperature range, you'll get more of the fruit esters for which English ales are famous. Wyeast 1272, Wyeast 1332, WLP041 and WLP051 also have fruitier ester profiles than the standard "US" strains (S-05, Wyeast 1056, WLP001) or Nottingham. I used to use Cal V (WLP051) for damn near everything and just adjust the temperature to encourage (or discourage) ester production.

Bob

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Thanks for the tips! I can't control my temps yet, and tend to ferment at 76, so I guess I will get some of those fruity qualities.

Has anyone used NW Pale Ale Malt on here? I did some googling/searching and couldn't find any reference. It is only $33 for a 50lb bag from brewbrothers.biz

Kudos to you for trying to achieve this with local products. It's certainly not the easy way to do it, but I appreciate that effort when somebody stretches themselves with a goal in mind other than just making great beer. Good luck with it!!

Picobrew said:

Thanks for the tips! I can't control my temps yet, and tend to ferment at 76, so I guess I will get some of those fruity qualities.

Has anyone used NW Pale Ale Malt on here? I did some googling/searching and couldn't find any reference. It is only $33 for a 50lb bag from brewbrothers.biz

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I've used the Pale Ale malt. It's a tad more malty than regular 2-row...works good for light SMaSH ales.

I would HIGHLY suggest finding a way to control your fermentation temperatures. There are only a few types of beer that should ever ferment about 70°F. It's so easy, too, whether it's a son-of-fermentation chiller, a used fridge or simply an ice bath, there's really no reason you can't get something to make your beer HUNDREDS of times better.

DeathBrewer said:

I've used the Pale Ale malt. It's a tad more malty than regular 2-row...works good for light SMaSH ales.

I would HIGHLY suggest finding a way to control your fermentation temperatures. There are only a few types of beer that should ever ferment about 70°F. It's so easy, too, whether it's a son-of-fermentation chiller, a used fridge or simply an ice bath, there's really no reason you can't get something to make your beer HUNDREDS of times better.

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Hmm you make it sound easier than I imagined. My temps hover above 70 all the time, but don't make it to 80. I have a tiny condo, and I put all my brews in my coat closet. Its a sloped under-stair closet, and I can fit about 6 brews in there. Unfortunately, I can't really think of anything I can do in this small space to control things.

Willamette hops are a Fuggles cultivar and are a PNW product. Wyeast 1332 (Northwest Ale) is reportedly the Gales (British) strain via Hales brewery in Seattle, so that definitely fits. It will give you that moderate attenuation and British character that you're looking for. I've used in in my Apex Amber, Carolina Gales ESB, and Kitchen Staff Mild, and it's a great yeast for that English Bitter/Mild flavor profile.

It does sound like the NW malt would be a great sub for Marris Otter, though I'd probably throw in 6-8oz of biscuit malt to really nail it.

Definitely find a way to control your fermentation temperatures, even if it is simply a bus tub that you put your fermenter in and partially fill with water. You can find them at any restaurant supply for about $5. I use one, and a couple of frozen water bottles, replaced every couple of hours, keeps me dead on 63°-64° with no effort whatsoever. It will make a world of difference in your brewing.

Chad

Chad said:

I use one, and a couple of frozen water bottles, replaced every couple of hours, keeps me dead on 63°-64° with no effort whatsoever. It will make a world of difference in your brewing.
Chad

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Thanks for the advice on the malt/hops Chad. Re: the temp control, changing frozen bottles every couple hours doesn't sound like 0 effort!! I am not home very much so I can't really do that. The dream would be 2 giant chest freezers, one for fermenting and one for serving, but that will be a few years!

Yeah, I meant to say there are only a few beers that should ferment ABOVE 70°F

I ferment most of my ales in the low 60s.

Picobrew said:

changing frozen bottles every couple hours doesn't sound like 0 effort!!

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It's easier than it sounds. You can knock 10F or more off the waterbath temps by swapping the bottles 2x day. Takes about 30 seconds.

In the morning: Carry melted 2L bottles from tub to freezer. Put in freezer. Carry frozen bottles from freezer to tub. Drink coffee.

Repeat at night, only with beer instead of coffee in the drinking step.

As Fratermus says, even if you only change the frozen water bottles twice a day you'll still be way ahead. The water in the tub acts as a giant heat brake, keeping temperatures much more stable than they otherwise would be. That alone will make a world of difference.

Chad

I used to keep brews in my closet at my apartment, where it was in the 70s. I only had to change ice out once a day (2 - 1 gallon containers), sometimes I'd forget a day...no big deal. Anything will be better than fermenting in the 70s. Unless you're making a saison

DeathBrewer said:

I used to keep brews in my closet at my apartment, where it was in the 70s. I only had to change ice out once a day (2 - 1 gallon containers), sometimes I'd forget a day...no big deal. Anything will be better than fermenting in the 70s. Unless you're making a saison

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Thanks for all the temp tips. Do I need to worry about this only during primary fermentation? is there a good faq/sticky about this busbucket technique?

Only during primary. Just google "water bath", "ice bath", "fermentation chiller", etc.

Basically, all you need is a bucket that will hold enough water to stick your fermenter and some ice into.

DeathBrewer said:

Only during primary. Just google "water bath", "ice bath", "fermentation chiller", etc.

Basically, all you need is a bucket that will hold enough water to stick your fermenter and some ice into.

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Ok. Good thing I only primary 1-2 things at a time. I was having visions of 6 swimming fermenters and it was freaking me out a bit

After doing this, do you just measure the ferment temp with a fermometer sticker or something?

Picobrew said:

Has anyone used NW Pale Ale Malt on here? I did some googling/searching and couldn't find any reference. It is only $33 for a 50lb bag from brewbrothers.biz

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I've used it once so far. The beer is still in the fermenter, so I haven't tasted it yet. I did get lower efficiency than I normally get, and the only difference I can think of is that malt.

The Igloo Ice Cube coolers will hold a carboy real nicely. You can cut out the top to make room for the carboy or fashion an insulated top out of rigid styrofoam. I have a 70 qt. version and it works great.

Picobrew said:

Thanks for the tips! I can't control my temps yet, and tend to ferment at 76, so I guess I will get some of those fruity qualities.

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I don't know what I was tripping on earlier, but I checked by thermometers and fermometers today and they were all 68, which is what I think it stays pretty constantly. For some reason I was thinking 76 instead of 68 Summer is coming though, and I'm probably going to need to do something ala the cooler + ice.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, here is the beginning of a recipe for a 5g batch:


Style: Standard/Ordinary Bitter
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.00 lb Northwest Pale Ale Malt (2.8 SRM) Grain 77.78 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
0.75 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 15.9 IBU
0.25 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.8 IBU
1 Pkgs Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) [Starter 500 ml] Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.045 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.12 %
Bitterness: 26.7 IBU
Est Color: 8.2 SRM


I was going to add biscuit malt too, but is that only from Belgium?

According to beersmith, the bitterness ratio is 0.590. Is that too low? Should I sub in some US Goldings for the First wort and bitter hops?

This is a bitter, right? I say let's get a little chocolate malt in there. Just 2-3 ounces outta do it.

I'd also switch out a bit of the FWH for the 60 minute addition. You want a bit of a bitter bite and the FWH will make it really soft...more for flavor.

FWH is really nice and smooth. I've been trying it out lately...this roggenbier I'm drinking is just amazing and I think alot of that was the FWH addition.

Other than that I wouldn't change a thing.

DeathBrewer said:

This is a bitter, right? I say let's get a little chocolate malt in there. Just 2-3 ounces outta do it.

I'd also switch out a bit of the FWH for the 60 minute addition. You want a bit of a bitter bite and the FWH will make it really soft...more for flavor.

FWH is really nice and smooth. I've been trying it out lately...this roggenbier I'm drinking is just amazing and I think alot of that was the FWH addition.

Other than that I wouldn't change a thing.

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I think I actually want to shoot for something on the low end of a bitter - both in color and bitterness. I want something that I can give to any of my friends / relatives and they can drink it with ease. I just had an AleSmith Anvil, and it was a tad too bitter for what I'm shooting for. Maybe I can use this as a base to create something "extra special". Is this still not bitter enough?

Chocolate? Buh!? Not in my Bitter! Yeah, it gives a nice color, but to get that color, you need to use enough that it will impact flavor, however slightly. Better to use a fistful of roasted barley. Better yet, use 10% 60L Crystal malt.



Biscuit is indeed a Belgian malt. I don't know of any domestic maltster producing it. A almost exact replacement is Briess's Victory. Descriptions use the same words: biscuit, bread, toast. It's even about the same color rating in Lovibond.

Gee, I wonder if Briess was thinking of a copy...? Nah. Too conspiracy-theory.

Use it 1:1 where you would use Biscuit and you'll be good to go.

Bob

Roasted barley? What, you want a bitter to taste like an irish red? That weird, roasted, melanoiden taste that makes murphy's taste like crap? Yeah, not really my favorite grain for color adjustment.

2 ounces of chocolate malt does nothing but add a small amount of color and round out the flavor, it will actually make it smoother.

Picobrew said:

I think I actually want to shoot for something on the low end of a bitter - both in color and bitterness. I want something that I can give to any of my friends / relatives and they can drink it with ease. I just had an AleSmith Anvil, and it was a tad too bitter for what I'm shooting for. Maybe I can use this as a base to create something "extra special". Is this still not bitter enough?

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It will work. I'd say it's still on the low end of the style, but I'm sure it will be a very good beer.

The victory isn't a bad idea for replacing bisquit, if you want to use it:

Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: Recipes using Briess Victory® Malt

I am glad to see you are trying a NW extra pale. I am planning on a copperhook clone and am going to use WLP041 for my yeast with is the Northwest strain for white labs.

DeathBrewer said:

Roasted barley? What, you want a bitter to taste like an irish red? That weird, roasted, melanoiden taste that makes murphy's taste like crap? Yeah, not really my favorite grain for color adjustment.

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No, I want it to add color only. When I say, "a fistful", I don't mean 2 ounces. I mean a couple of tablespoons. An ounce or less. That in no way impacts the flavor of the beer. It only provides color.

Unlike chocolate malt, which - whether you call it 'rounding' or not - does have a flavor impact, when you use more than an ounce or so.

So there!

Bob

NQ3X said:

No, I want it to add color only. When I say, "a fistful", I don't mean 2 ounces. I mean a couple of tablespoons. An ounce or less. That in no way impacts the flavor of the beer. It only provides color.

Unlike chocolate malt, which - whether you call it 'rounding' or not - does have a flavor impact, when you use more than an ounce or so.

So there!

Bob

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If you don't want to impart flavor AT ALL, but you want color...try some dehusked carafa II. That will add ZERO flavor and it's darker than roasted barley.

regardless of using chocolate or RB, I wonder if you should use Munich 10 L and not the 20L. I think that is going to provide more melanoidans than youd want. However, if you werent going to use any crystal malt, it might be fine. Its your beer in the end.

I like to put ~5% medium british crystal, and a bit of torrified wheat for head retention. But then again, im using marris otter as a base....ill shut up now.

You guys rock. Thanks for all the advice. Ok, I just put in a big order, so I will have some options to play with. I ordered:

50lb bag of NW Pale Ale malt

and then these in smaller quantities:

Great Western Organic Munich
Briess Organic Crystal 120L
Briess Organic Carapils
Briess Victory

As well as a pound of willamette and 1/2lb of US Goldings.

I think I am going to try to avoid Chocolate and roasted barley, and just try to do with the 120L and Victory. What do you think? I am probably going to scale this up to 10 gallons and split it with a friend for a parallel ferment.

Here is a revised version of the recipe. Is it a bad idea to mix the Goldings and Willamette? I haven't used them before.

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.75 lb Northwest Pale Ale Malt (2.8 SRM) Grain 63.33 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 26.67 %
0.25 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.25 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.50 oz Goldings, US [5.00 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 9.2 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 9.6 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, US [5.00 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1 Pkgs Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) [Starter 500 ml] Yeast-Ale

This is 1.040 OG and 1.012 FG according to Beersmith @ 75% efficiency. The IBUs are 25.4 and Est. ABV is 3.66%. I wouldn't mind it a bit stronger but it would be out of style unless I reduced some of the unfermentables while increasing ABV.

Most of my recipes have been simpler than this so far (the variety of grains/hop additions). Am I going overboard?

I'm just wrapping up a mild. I used 100% mild malt and adjusted the color with Sinamar. They recipe called for brewer's caramel, which I could not find. So far it has turned out well, and the mild malt really gave a good flavor profile.

Picobrew said:

Here is a revised version of the recipe. Is it a bad idea to mix the Goldings and Willamette? I haven't used them before.

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.75 lb Northwest Pale Ale Malt (2.8 SRM) Grain 63.33 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 26.67 %
0.25 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.25 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.50 oz Goldings, US [5.00 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 9.2 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 9.6 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, US [5.00 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1 Pkgs Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) [Starter 500 ml] Yeast-Ale

This is 1.040 OG and 1.012 FG according to Beersmith @ 75% efficiency. The IBUs are 25.4 and Est. ABV is 3.66%. I wouldn't mind it a bit stronger but it would be out of style unless I reduced some of the unfermentables while increasing ABV.

Most of my recipes have been simpler than this so far (the variety of grains/hop additions). Am I going overboard?

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Willamette and Goldings work beautifully together. You're fine there. Two pounds of Munich seems like a lot to me. Your other specialty malts will add some complexity and depth, especially in restrained quarter-pound increments. If you are going for an American Bitter, that much Munich is going to throw the flavor off, I believe. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

Chad

Chad, do you think I should sub out a pound of munich for more of the pale malt?

Ok I'm getting serious about this recipe now. Going to do a 10G batch this weekend and split it with a friend for fermentation. Anyone have any more input on the recipe? I'm going to start my yeast starter soon.

I wouldn't worry about the CaraPils. If you want the foam retention, sub in the same amount of wheat malt. Frankly, I think too many brewers just automatically include CaraPils, even when they don't need it. You certainly don't need it in this case. That's the only tweak I'd make.

You're on to a good beer! Have fun!

Bob

This is a cool project... looking forward to hearing more on it.

NQ3X said:

I wouldn't worry about the CaraPils. If you want the foam retention, sub in the same amount of wheat malt. Frankly, I think too many brewers just automatically include CaraPils, even when they don't need it. You certainly don't need it in this case. That's the only tweak I'd make.

You're on to a good beer! Have fun!

Bob

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Ok, I already have a bunch of OG CaraPils on hand so I thought I'd add some. I'm very new to All Grain (and brewing), so I'm still learning how to use the grains. Maybe I'll leave out the CaraPils to see how it is without it.

Picobrew said:

You guys rock. Thanks for all the advice. Ok, I just put in a big order, so I will have some options to play with. I ordered:

50lb bag of NW Pale Ale malt

and then these in smaller quantities:

Great Western Organic Munich
Briess Organic Crystal 120L
Briess Organic Carapils
Briess Victory

As well as a pound of willamette and 1/2lb of US Goldings.

I think I am going to try to avoid Chocolate and roasted barley, and just try to do with the 120L and Victory. What do you think? I am probably going to scale this up to 10 gallons and split it with a friend for a parallel ferment.

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I made a good best bitter with only base malt (MO) 3/4 lb crystal 60L and 1/2 lb of victory. It was a very good, easy drinking beer. I used the 1028 london ale yeast, but I think that Northwest Ale strain is english based, no? good luck, sounds good.