Questions on my Pumpkin Porter

So this is my first partial mash brew, hopefully it turns out ok. I have several random questions about it.

So primary fermentation seems to be winding down with OG at about 1.058 and FG at 1.020. So I was thinking as I rack to secondary I might put the little bit of yeast I have left with some brown sugar to get a little more fermentation out of the batch. I know you usually shouldnt use sugar for fermentation, but I was just going to use a couple cups and I figure brown sugar would go ok with pumpkin porter anyways.

Secondly, there's a LOT of particulate in my wort...probably from the pumpkin. Tonight it's going to get pretty cold out, can I just leave the fermentator outside overnight to settle it down? Would this be something I should do right before bottling instead.

Lastly, I freakin can't get good color out of my beer! It always seems to be this blah brown color, and I'd like something darker for a porter obviously. Would it be acceptable to mash a little more Black patent (started with .5 pounds) and dump it in with secondary to darken it up? It is pretty unacceptably light for a porter.

If it were me, I would probably let it sit in primary for a bit longer. It may ferment a bit further and the particulate in the wort will probably drop out a bit.

Adding brown sugar might not change the flavor a whole lot, but it will up the amount of alcohol in the end product.

I would probably not add the extra yeast unless you're looking for something specific to come out of it. The existing yeast will most likely convert any additional sugar you add just fine.

Loup said:

If it were me, I would probably let it sit in primary for a bit longer. It may ferment a bit further and the particulate in the wort will probably drop out a bit.

Adding brown sugar might not change the flavor a whole lot, but it will up the amount of alcohol in the end product.

I would probably not add the extra yeast unless you're looking for something specific to come out of it. The existing yeast will most likely convert any additional sugar you add just fine.

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I've read that cooling the beer to just above freezing can settle it down a lot, is there any particular reason why it would be a bad idea?

I'm thinking of adding more yeast because I don't have the materials for a yeast starter so I figure it may not be 100% efficient so adding more with a bit of sugar might jump start it to ferment whats left

Does anyone have any ideas as to adding a little bit of mashed black patent to the secondary to darken the color?

zaprozdower said:

I've read that cooling the beer to just above freezing can settle it down a lot, is there any particular reason why it would be a bad idea?

I'm thinking of adding more yeast because I don't have the materials for a yeast starter so I figure it may not be 100% efficient so adding more with a bit of sugar might jump start it to ferment whats left

Does anyone have any ideas as to adding a little bit of mashed black patent to the secondary to darken the color?

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Cooling your beer to just above freezing is called crash cooling. I do it to settle the proteins and stuff out of my beer and I know a lot of other people who do as well. The yeast will go dormant, so they won't really be of much use when you do that, so I would hold off on doing that until you're ready to bottle.

Leave it in the primary a little longer. With a pumpkin addition, you'll likely get less out of it because of all the extra gunk, but that's ok.

Sugar MIGHT jumpstart the yeast into getting it to ferment lower, but it might just eat the newly added sugar and up your alcohol content.

And you could add the black patent just like you suggested. I don't see any harm in that, although you'll need to be very strict on your sanitation methods. Honestly, I'd rather have a brown beer than a screwed up black one.

To darken it up a tad you could use "Sinamar" ( Sinamar is a coloring agent from Weyermann ) available here : NORTHERN BREWER: Additives

Skal!

Jens

carnevoodoo said:

Cooling your beer to just above freezing is called crash cooling. I do it to settle the proteins and stuff out of my beer and I know a lot of other people who do as well. The yeast will go dormant, so they won't really be of much use when you do that, so I would hold off on doing that until you're ready to bottle.

Leave it in the primary a little longer. With a pumpkin addition, you'll likely get less out of it because of all the extra gunk, but that's ok.

Sugar MIGHT jumpstart the yeast into getting it to ferment lower, but it might just eat the newly added sugar and up your alcohol content.

And you could add the black patent just like you suggested. I don't see any harm in that, although you'll need to be very strict on your sanitation methods. Honestly, I'd rather have a brown beer than a screwed up black one.

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Thanks for the help. I only have one fermentor and no tubing anyways, so in order to do secondary I have to transfer the beer in my beer pot and clean out the primary, so I have to risk spoiling the beer regardless, so I'm gunna go ahead and mash some more black patent, it needs more roasted flavor in addition to color anyways.

i'd avoid the black patent addition, and i'd also avoid the transfer to your boil pot so you can clean and reuse your bucket. both of these are asking for big problems. i think the best course you can take is to leave your poor beer alone for another week or two. stop futzing with it!! you'll probably get a few more gravity points out of it. when you can't stand waiting any longer cold crash it out side over night if you want and then bottle it.

Don't transfer it for the sake of the black patent. You're begging for oxidation problems if you're pouring the beer back and forth.

The flavor will come through a lot more with carbonation. Give it time, add a bit more sugar if you want to up the abv, and skip the patent addition.

zaprozdower said:

Thanks for the help. I only have one fermentor and no tubing anyways, so in order to do secondary I have to transfer the beer in my beer pot and clean out the primary, so I have to risk spoiling the beer regardless, so I'm gunna go ahead and mash some more black patent, it needs more roasted flavor in addition to color anyways.

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Nooooooo. Don't do this. Just leave it in primary and skip a secondary altogether. There's way too much introduction to oxygen if you're transferring into an open pot like that. Just leave it in primary until you're ready to bottle.

Use this batch to learn what you need to do for the next batch.

I made my pumpkin ale with a brown ale recipe and when I went to check the FG, the hydrometer went "thud" down into the collected pumpkin at the bottom of the bucket...wouldn't even float. I only got a disheartening 3.5 gallons from the whole 5 gallon batch, but it did taste very yummy.

carnevoodoo said:

Nooooooo. Don't do this. Just leave it in primary and skip a secondary altogether. There's way too much introduction to oxygen if you're transferring into an open pot like that. Just leave it in primary until you're ready to bottle.

Use this batch to learn what you need to do for the next batch.

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Interesting, I trust all of your advice but I'm interested as to the consequences of doing these things. Last batch I transfered like I discribed and it seemed ok, what are the possible consequences of oxidation?

What if I add some black patent while just leaving the batch in the primary? Also, if I cold shock it before bottling, will the yeast still be able to create carbonation in the bottling process?

Anyone got ideas on that?

zaprozdower said:

I'm thinking of adding more yeast because I don't have the materials for a yeast starter so I figure it may not be 100% efficient so adding more with a bit of sugar might jump start it to ferment whats left

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You're more or less past the point where the starter would have made a difference. By not making the starter you can end up with more esters and a few other off flavors, but those are mostly made during the growth phase, and you're past that. You might also end up with a slightly higher FG because you didn't make the starter, but I wouldn't worry about that too much with how low your OG was (making the starter also helps the yeast fight any infections, but you're past that point as well.)

Interesting, I trust all of your advice but I'm interested as to the consequences of doing these things. Last batch I transfered like I discribed and it seemed ok, what are the possible consequences of oxidation?

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oxidation causes sort of a cardboard flavor in the beer. By transferring it back in forth the way you described you also increase the chances of infection.

What if I add some black patent while just leaving the batch in the primary? Also, if I cold shock it before bottling, will the yeast still be able to create carbonation in the bottling process?

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can't tell you what will happen by just adding black patent to the primary because I've never tried it. If it were me, I would live with the fact that I had made a pumpkin brown instead of a pumpkin porter, but if you want to experiment, you should feel free to do so. I guess my suggestion would be to steep some black patent in maybe a couple of quarts of water and then boil the water for about 10 minutes after removing the black patent and add that to your primary to avoid infection.

if you cold shock your beer before bottling there will probably still be enough yeast to carbonate your beer in the bottle, but make sure to store the bottles at around 70 degrees while it's carbing. I guess I would discourage you from cold crashing the beer if you aren't having haze issues with the beer (maybe see how this batch turns out without cold crashing, and if there is too much haze in the end product, cold crash it the next time you make it.)

[edit]I just thought of one other thing, because I'm not sure if it's been covered here or not. If you use dry yeast you don't really need a starter, in fact you shouldn't use a starter with dry yeast.

Yeah. Oxidation isn't the best flavor. Trust me.

Loup said:

oxidation causes sort of a cardboard flavor in the beer. By transferring it back in forth the way you described you also increase the chances of infection. .

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Ohhh yeah, I had a pack of JW Dundee Honey Brown that tasted more like cardboard than anything else...guess now I know why. What if I transferred it carefully without much splash and covered it while I cleaned out the tank for secondary? The wort just really has a LOT of particulate and looking at it now, it's not something I'd want to have someone else drink.

How long has it been in primary at this point? If it's been less than 2 or 3 weeks I would just let it continue to settle in the primary for now. If you're beyond that, being careful would be the way to go. you would be best off getting some vinyl tubing and an auto-siphon to transfer it to minimize oxidation, just pouring it straight into another container will introduce a lot of oxygen, and as far as that goes, it wouldn't hurt to pick up another bucket to use as a secondary and just transfer straight into that, and that way you're minimizing the number of transfers which helps cut down on exposure to oxygen.

Well I mashed up .33 pounds of black patent, added a cup and a half of brown sugar and added it in. Got a bit darker, not porter status but oh well, and definitely got more of the roasted character that I was looked for.

Did it quick without transferring the wort out so I think I avoided any real oxidation. And man this is going to be a strong porter!

Wow, I'm about to bottle this and it's tasting pretty freakin good. I think the ticket was adding some of the spice in with the boiling pumpkin before adding it to the brewpot. Seems like the black patent/Carapils mix is doing alright too!

i made a similar brew just recently...
added 1 cup brown sugar
1/2 cup orange blossom honey
4 cans 100% pumpkin.
about 1 tsp. each of cloves, cinnamon, pump. pie spice

the reason for all the fermentables is that I assummed there was going to be at least 9 inches of Trube on the bottom of the primary (which there was...really like a foot!)
so i racked to secondary and then added water to make up the gallon loss..i had no issues with this...
and the taste was money...
unfortunately a dropped hydrometer (busted) did not allow me to get a reading on the intermediate steps...(or the end....i know, how lazy are you that you cannot get a new hydrometer...)

the point: i feel the brown sugar really helped the flavor...
hope some of this helps...the only thing it needed was MORE spice....and more pumpkin...next year....6 cans of pumpkin and at least 3 Tbls of spice total...
all the stuff i read said to be careful on the spice...whatever...i got scared and underspiced....1 TBls was not enough spice...

making a winter spice ale next....
good luck...