4 months - No Pellicle

Made a flanders red sour back about 4 months ago. Still no pellicle. What if any actions can I take?

Thanks

Nothing. Let it go for a few more months before you decide to take any action. Of all the lambics I've made, they take at least 6-9 months to form the pellicle.

Pellicles form quickly if there is oxygen in the headspace. If you keep your airlock filled and don't pull samples too often it will generally take a few months to form and when it does it won’t be that thick.

Have you taken a sample of the beer? That’s the best way to see how things are progressing.

So I just tasted it and there is a hint of sourness. No pellicle. It is now at the 5 month mark.

Should I still let it ride or maybe try to kick it along in some way shape or form

add oak chips and it will form a pellicle. is it due to the oxygen being introduced by disturbing the beer? yes. does having a pellicle mean having a better beer? no.

edit: now that you recently sampled the beer you may have done enough already.

Ok, thanks, I guess I am not as concerned with the lack of pellicle.... Just worried that I wll do nothing at the 5-6 months mark and just sit and wait until 12-18 months pass and look back and wish there was something that I could have done.

Is there anything on the horizon that I should do - or consider doing? At the 8 months mark? 10 months? Adding anything - more bugs, malt, dex?

Thanks

Why don't you tell us what you did? Recipe, bugs, general technique? What the gravity is etc...

Adding more bugs would be a good idea if you just added a commercial culture. Adding sugar/dextrin wouldn't be a bad idea if you fermented the beer out clean before adding bugs, or if the gravity is very low already <1.005 say.

I'm interested. Please post details, specifically yeast choice(s) and fermentation schedule.

I've got Jamil's Flanders Red recipe going, on Wyeast Roselare blend. Brewed 4 days ago. It's fermenting strong right now.

Hey all

I used the grains and dme mixture that old sock suggested. Og was around1.060 and I fermented it
With rosalare only. After 2 months I added oak chips which had soaked in makers mark for a month.

It dropped to 1.005 the last time I took a gravity reading which
Was2 months ago.

The last 2 months there really hasn't been much happening. Taste is currently a hint of sour.
Which I guess is a relative term do lets just say not sour enough.

Any other information needed let me know.... And thanks for any tips


I am currently at the 5 month mark.

There is still certainly a chance that the beer will get more sour, so you could certainly wait. That said I'd start adding dregs the next few times you have a bottle of something you enjoy. If you still haven't gotten more sourness in 3-4 months I'd go with 1/2 lb of light DME.

Update

Went down this morning and it looks like the oxygen introduced from taking a sample
Has caused a thin white pellicle to form.

I will continue to monitor the taste.

Thanks for all the advice

Hey
I have it in the basement at high 50s to low 60s in temp. Is that a problem to let it sit from months 5-9 at this temp? Will it negate any progress?
Thanks
J

As long as the basement doesn't go to below freezing for too long, and I doubt it could, you will be fine. Just a little slower progress.

Would it be a good idea to move it to a corner of the house (60-70F or so most of the time) or are the effects negligible?

60-70 will make a beer that will sour more quickly

Thanks all for the help with this.
Just did a gravity test and taste test at the 6 month mark.

Souring nicely - especially for only 6 months. Great flavor behind the sourness and very nice amber color. Different flavors at different points of the taste (intial sour, lingering oakiness (slight) - just reasonably complex overall.

Has a solid pellicle going now and looking good heading into the next 6 months.

Just added 1 more ounce of french medium toast oak chips that have been soaking in makers mark for 6 months. The oak level was very low at this tasting and I figured it has 6 months to go so I will add a little every 2-3 months if it needs it.

Original recipe below...

Well,

Between posting and reading here, other forums, and books... I have come up with the following plan for my sour. I hope to get some feedback and advice to shore this up. Thank you all for your input (past and present)

MASH THE FOLLOWING AT 155F for 90min
1.75# Munich
1.75# Vienna
8oz Aromatic
6oz Caramunich
4oz Special B

BRING TO BOIL AND ADD
2# Wheat DME
1# Light DME
1oz Fuggles (15IBU)

COOL TO 68F AND ADD
Wyeast Rosealare Blend into a 6.5 Gallon Bucket with an airlock

FERMENT IN BUCKET
3-4 weeks

RACK TO 5GAL BETTER BOTTLE
With little head-space and an airlock

FORGET ABOUT IT
In the basement in the mid to high 60's for a year

ADD 1oz OAK CHIPS
To the better bottle for 1 more month

BOTTLE
With a little extra yeast

STATS

Predicted SG: 1.049
Predicted FG: 1.002
Predicted ABV: 6.1%
SRM: 13

FINAL NOTES
The timelines are approximations.
The predictions are just that

Gravity?

Gravity Progression was as follows:

(July) Brewed : 1.060
(August) Fermentation Slows and Kraiussen Drops : 1.020
(October) Grav Check: 1.014
(December) Open to allow oxygen in (no grav check)
(End December) Pellicle Forms (no grav check
(Now - January 20th): 1.005

Seems like a decent progression. I am assuming that the only mild sourness is due to only a 6 month time mark.

I look forward to the next 6 months.

Any tips on ways to add complexity to this beer?

J

jalgayer said:

Any tips on ways to add complexity to this beer?

Click to expand...

Time. Some of the most complex sours to me are the ones that don't have character from a wood/fruit/spice covering up the flavors from the yeast and bacteria. The best sours are often aged 2-3 years before bottling, something I haven't been been able to will myself to really try yet.

Time. Yeah... Crazy that the yeast and bugs are still doing stuff after 2 years +.
I dont plan to add any spice or fruit to the mix. I agree I want to taste the yeast and bugs.
The little bit of oak I add was because I dont see that overpowering the sour beer. Especially since it will be sitting for another 6-12 months.

Agreed, I add a bit of oak to most of my sours, being subtle is the key (no one wants to taste lumber in their beer). I think spices and fruit can make great additions, they just aren't the only way to add complexity.

man you sour brewers are crazy.

that said, i have maybe 1/2 pound of year old hops that i'm probably gonna end up throwing away if anyone's interested.

So, after I gently added the oak chips through the medium pellicle I look two days later (now) and the pellicle is gone.

Not worried - just curious. It didnt seem to disturb the pellicle when I added the oak... But this I guess is likely what caused it right?

Should I expect it to come back?

Looking forward to any insight or advice.

J

Also, oldsock, you suggested in my other thread...

i would use maltodextrine if you're not doing the turbid mash as we discussed in the previous posts. i would definitely feed the beer as time goes on, whether with fruit, wort or more maltodextrine

Now that I am at the 6 month mark -- what should I consider as I am looking to do or not do this?

Thanks

J

jalgayer said:

what should I consider as I am looking to do or not do this?

Click to expand...

i say do it. like oldsock eluded to: you want to feed your bugs intermittently. this will optimize their yummy time. yummy time = scientific i know i would add more maltodextrin, wort or fruit in a few months to provide another meal and help the buggies to flourish. malatodextrin acts like the turbid mash since would be adding unfermentables that are available only to the wild stuff.

the dropping of the pellicle is a lesson learned. don't touch

Great stuff, Jessup.
Should I expect it to come back - and does it really matter either way?

jalgayer said:

Great stuff, Jessup.
Should I expect it to come back - and does it really matter either way?

Click to expand...

What are some thoughts on what to feed this sour with so its the bugs that are fed. Malto seems to be what i am hearing... Or should I add lactose sugar or both?

And i was reading in another thread about adding different bret/ pedo/ lacto strains or dregs later in the process.... Is this to add complexity?

Essentially i understand this is not an exact process, but what would be a reasonable approach at this point?

I know i have a lot of questions in here so i will list the nutshell version below

As a reminder this was a wyeast rosalare pitched into a sg around 1.060.... Went to 1.015 or so then to 1.005 (now) from the bugs. Pellicle rose after 5 months and dropped when I added some oak chips at the 6 month mark.

(1) what/ how much "food" to add
(2) what (pedo/ lacto/ bret) to add (if at all)
(3) should i expect the pellicle I disturbed to come back?

Wow I am a pain in the arse!

Thank you all for bearing with me.

J

1) I've had fine luck with DME, honey, and fruit. I only do it if the beer iu obviously not progressing to where I want, or if I want the flavor of the sugar.

2) I add dregs from good bottles when I drink them. The fresher the better.

3) Doesn't really matter, it may or it may not.

Hope that helps.

the roselare yeast blend already added some lacto and pedio along with the brett.

from wyeast:
"Our blend of lambic cultures produce beer with a complex, earthy profile and a distinctive pie cherry sourness. Aging up to 18 months is required for a full flavor profile and acidity to develop. Specific proportions of a Belgian style ale strain, a sherry strain, two Brettanomyces strains, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture produce the desirable flavor components of these beers as they are brewed in West Flanders."

Old sock -

I really dont want to add any fruit. I am too worried that it will impart flavors that will compete with yeast and sourness. Honey may not be bad - but would the regular yeast (sach?) just eat that? Same with DME? Add why would it add the flavor of sugar? Would all the sugars be eaten between the yeast and the bugs?

Jessup -
That is great info thanks! So I guess there is not a need to add more.

Great advice here - I have learned more in this thread than in a while

jalgayer said:

Old sock -

I really dont want to add any fruit. I am too worried that it will impart flavors that will compete with yeast and sourness. Honey may not be bad - but would the regular yeast (sach?) just eat that? Same with DME? Add why would it add the flavor of sugar? Would all the sugars be eaten between the yeast and the bugs?

Click to expand...

At this point the Sacch probably isn't as active as the Brett and bacteria, so they should eat most of whatever sugar you add. What I was trying to say is that I generally don't add a sugar source simply for the fermentables; I add fruit if I want to add a fruit flavor or honey if I want some honey aromatics.

Malto-dextrin or lactose certainly could work, I just haven't tried them.

Just a follow up to jalgayer's questions. How much fruit, maltodextrin, DME or honey would you add at a time? If adding maltodextrin or DME do you dissolve it in water first?

Kind of an unrelated question, but the current lambic I have going is for my wife who likes the sweetness of Lindemans lambics. I recently sampled mine and it's very sour and dry with no sweetness. I think it's nice, but she doesn't. It's ~ 8 months old and I've already added 2 cans of fruit puree.

So the question is, how can I increase the sweetness? Do I add a sugar that isn't fermented very well by some yeast such as maltotriose just before bottling? Any other suggestions?

Finally is there a consensus on how much/what kind of yeast to add before bottling? I've read/been told quite a few differing opinions.

Thanks!

bluedubbed said:

Just a follow up to jalgayer's questions. How much fruit, maltodextrin, DME or honey would you add at a time? If adding maltodextrin or DME do you dissolve it in water first?

Kind of an unrelated question, but the current lambic I have going is for my wife who likes the sweetness of Lindemans lambics. I recently sampled mine and it's very sour and dry with no sweetness. I think it's nice, but she doesn't. It's ~ 8 months old and I've already added 2 cans of fruit puree.

So the question is, how can I increase the sweetness? Do I add a sugar that isn't fermented very well by some yeast such as maltotriose just before bottling? Any other suggestions?

Finally is there a consensus on how much/what kind of yeast to add before bottling? I've read/been told quite a few differing opinions.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I would dissolve anything granulated to prevent foaming and ensure it dissolves. How much you add depends on the base beer and what you are trying to accomplish. For fruit I’ve used between .5 and 2.5 lbs per gallon (less for stronger flavored fruits, more for more flavorful beers). If you are just trying to feed the bugs, .5-1 lb of fermentables per 5 gallons would be a good place to start, you can always add more.

I would bottle the lambic as is and add simple syrup to taste in the glass. That way you can have it dry, and she can have it sweet. You could even make a fruit flavored syrup by boiling fresh/frozen fruit with water and sugar then straining if she wants more fruit flavor. Something like this: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/blueberry-soda-recipe/index.html

To get a bottled sweetened lambic you’d need to get rid of the bugs with chemicals, heat, or filtration. The bugs can eat through just about any sugar, although you could add an artificial sweetener if you wanted. I’ve dealt with both chemicals (crash cool, fine with gelatin, 1 campden tablet per gallon) and pasteurization (place bottles in a pot of cool water and heat until the beer is ~140 F). Even with the bugs dead you won’t be able to have a sugary sweet beer since the Sacch will eat simple sugars, but it would allow you to add lactose or something similar.

You a sour at a year or less you don’t need to add bottling yeast, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt. I often use wine yeast since it is acid/alcohol tolerant, but most beer yeasts would do a fine job as well.

Hope that helps, good luck.

bluedubbed said:

Kind of an unrelated question, but the current lambic I have going is for my wife who likes the sweetness of Lindemans lambics. I recently sampled mine and it's very sour and dry with no sweetness. I think it's nice, but she doesn't. It's ~ 8 months old and I've already added 2 cans of fruit puree.

So the question is, how can I increase the sweetness? Do I add a sugar that isn't fermented very well by some yeast such as maltotriose just before bottling? Any other suggestions?

Click to expand...

Lindemans uses acesulfame potassium (Ace-K, an artificial sweetener that's common in Europe) to sweeten theirs. Pure sucralose is easier to come by in the US and would probably serve the same purpose (be careful with Splenda--it contains some fermentables as filler so you'd have to let it ferment out after adding it and before bottling).

Or have her put a spoonful of sugar in the glass before pouring it.

Thanks. I just found that thread!

Good points again. I didnt realize that the sach was inactive... but that really makes sense.

Updating since my last post on this.

February: Sat with no changes

March: Pellicle returns. Aroma smells soury (sp?). Flavor is sour but not too much.

April: Pellicle drops again. i add 1oz of french medium toast oak chips that were soaking in makers mark for 9 months (second addition of oak - oak taste was basically non existent)

May: Rolling along - no tasting or smelling this month

June: Same

July: Taste much more sour. I added 8oz lactose sugar to try to give a *little* residual sweetness. Another pellicle returns at the end of this month.

August (13th month): Pellicle gone again. lactose worked like a charm as did the oak. Basically 85% sour flavor and arome with 10% slight sweetness and 5% hint of oak.

September and Beyond: I think I will just let this mesh for another month then bottle in october (which would be 15 months) and see how it ends up.

Anyone want to do a bottle swap of sours?

J

jalgayer said:

Anyone want to do a bottle swap of sours?

J

Click to expand...

I'd love to. I've got a Flanders Red I could send. Just don't know how to mail beers!

stuff it in an envelope?

passedpawn said:

I'd love to. I've got a Flanders Red I could send. Just don't know how to mail beers!

Click to expand...

Good question. Maybe bubble wrap a couple up really good then a "priority mail box" from the post office?

Let me get this bottled up, carbbed, then we will set something up.