8 batches and I still can't shake this off flavor...

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What's the update from Zeeland, TH?

Hi Iroc!


Cheers! Well I'm excited to say I think I have gotten to the root of the problem. An HBT member, Saccharomyces, graciously offered to sample a few of my beers so I sent him a couple. His response was that he was quite confident I did not have chlorophenols, but instead he detected a harsh astringency and maybe some hop over-utilization. He asked me for a copy of my water report so I sent it to him. This was his response:

Saccharomyces said:
I was right, your water is alkaline... Your water is fine for an AG brew (using 5.2 stabilizer), but for extract I would skip your water and go with 100% RO water; that will give you a less harsh hop bitterness, and will get rid of the pronounced mineral aftertaste I'm getting. For a hoppy beer you can add a tsp. of gypsum to the kettle with the RO water which will help up the sulfates and give you a crisper bitterness, but that is optional... For malty/balanced brews straight RO and extract will yield superior results every time!

I was talking with Chris Colby (BYO editor) a few months back about his method for extract/steeping grains. We were discussing your very problem which is very common -- 99% of brewers will get to the level where you are now with extract/steeping grains and think they have to go to AG to make better beer. Fact is you don't, Chris only does AG batches with a brew buddy. He has been doing extract for 20 years and he makes some GREAT beers. Here's the Colby method:

- Start with 1 gallon of Campden treated RO water and 1 tsp of 5.2 pH stabilizer in the kettle. Stir in 1 lb of dry extract while heating to 165*F. At 165*F remove from heat. Drop in the steeping grain bag, tea bag it to get the grains wet and let it sit 30 minutes. Steeping in a small volume with pH stabilizer and extract keeps the pH around 5.2 which will prevent extracting tannins from the grain husks, which is the most common off flavor in extract beers.
- Drop a strainer over the pot and move the grain bag to the strainer. Run your top-off water slowly over the grains to rinse them until you get to your desired boil volume. Stir in 1/3 of the remaining extract for a partial boil, or 2/3 if doing a full volume boil, and bring to a boil. Add your bittering hops.
- With 15 minutes left in the boil, add a whirlfloc tablet, yeast nutrient, and the rest of your extract (do this off the heat so you don't scorch of course!).
- Stir continuously while chilling until the wort drops below 140*F. Chris uses an immersion chiller in his sink and then moves to an ice bath until he gets down to pitching temp. I already gave you my method, while more hands-on it works too.

Give his method a try and I think you'll be amazed at the results.

I am extremely gratefull to him for his help and I plan on trying this method soon. As of right now, I did an AG batch 4 weeks ago that needs to be bottled soon and I also did one small test extract batch w/o steeping on that day as well.

I'm optimistic.
 
NE GR
Northview
right near Robinette's
I see you are looking for a place. "great time to buy" as the signs say.
I used to run past a Red IrocZ on Leffingwell NE, but I thought you were SW?

I hope it 'boils down' to a water problem with an easy fix TH. That sure was complex!
 
Batch #10 is been in bottles for 2 weeks. I sampled one monday and other than being a tad bit green, it was free from the off flavor and tasted quite good. I'm stoked. Batch #11 and 12 (one being my first AG) went into bottles a couple days ago. Those are the ones I'm really eager to try.
 
Batch #10 is been in bottles for 2 weeks. I sampled one monday and other than being a tad bit green, it was free from the off flavor and tasted quite good. I'm stoked. Batch #11 and 12 (one being my first AG) went into bottles a couple days ago. Those are the ones I'm really eager to try.

Hey, TH...found this thread cuz I'm having a similar problem. I'm an all-grain brewer so hopefully switching to AG didn't solve your issue! (though I do hope you were able to correct the problem somehow).

Anyway, reading through this post was like reading a novel with the last pages missing! You still around??

I'd really like to hear if you figured it out. Thanks.

EDIT: I should note that I only get this problem when using 001/1056 strain of yeast with "C" hops--namely Cascade and Centennial. These things are a staple for APA's, which are my favorite category. So, you can understand my frustration!
 
Well this novel has a happy ending...

Batches #13 and 14 (both AG) were bad. In fact, batch 14 was so bad, the solution hit me like a ton of bricks. I had dry hopped using a nylon bag that I had soaked in sanitizer just minutes before placing in the fermentor. And its the same sanitizer I had been using since bottling batch #2 - which was: iodophor. And not just any iodophor, I'm talking the farm supply store variety kind that I had found out about right here on HBT to use as a cheap sanitizer. I had already double-checked my math to make sure my concentration wasn't too high and that checked out. So I knew I had to try something else all together. I immediately went to my LHBS to pick up some Starsan to bottle batch #15. BINGO, off flavor gone. I've brewed 7 batches since, not one has had a trace of the off flavor.

The end.

Not sure if that helps your situation...I can only say hang in there!
 
Well this novel has a happy ending...

Batches #13 and 14 (both AG) were bad. In fact, batch 14 was so bad, the solution hit me like a ton of bricks. I had dry hopped using a nylon bag that I had soaked in sanitizer just minutes before placing in the fermentor. And its the same sanitizer I had been using since bottling batch #2 - which was: iodophor. And not just any iodophor, I'm talking the farm supply store variety kind that I had found out about right here on HBT to use as a cheap sanitizer. I had already double-checked my math to make sure my concentration wasn't too high and that checked out. So I knew I had to try something else all together. I immediately went to my LHBS to pick up some Starsan to bottle batch #15. BINGO, off flavor gone. I've brewed 7 batches since, not one has had a trace of the off flavor.

The end.

Not sure if that helps your situation...I can only say hang in there!

I'm glad it worked out for you!

I use Starsan already, so it's obviously not the same issue for me. The problem I'm experiencing is an overly bitter aftertaste that I get EVERY time I make an APA with Centennial or Cascade hops and 1056/001 yeast. I can barely drink it; tastes like grapefruit rind...completely overshadows the malt or any other flavors for that matter. I've made blonde's, english pale ales, browns, wheat beers, etc, that turned out fine.

I'm thinking hops overutilization, maybe...if anything pops in your mind, please pass it along. I can tell that you KNOW how frustrating this can be!!

Thanks.
 
Can you give me an example recipe?
Also, what kind of water are you using? Do you have a water analysis?
 
Can you give me an example recipe?
Also, what kind of water are you using? Do you have a water analysis?

I use grocery store spring water or drinking water. Usually a combination of both depending on how much they have at the time.

I don't have a recipe on hand (at work right now!). Any downside to using the water I've mentioned? It's like I said though...this problem only seems to occur when using 1056/001 yeast with Cascade and/or Centennial hops.
 
I use grocery store spring water or drinking water. Usually a combination of both depending on how much they have at the time.

I don't have a recipe on hand (at work right now!). Any downside to using the water I've mentioned? It's like I said though...this problem only seems to occur when using 1056/001 yeast with Cascade and/or Centennial hops.

I would suggest starting a new thread asking for help. I don't mind discussing it here but I'm thinking it would be better for your sake to thow it out there where others can see it. It's a wierd enough problem that you're bound to grab someone's attention who can help.
 
I would suggest starting a new thread asking for help. I don't mind discussing it here but I'm thinking it would be better for your sake to thow it out there where others can see it. It's a wierd enough problem that you're bound to grab someone's attention who can help.

I hear ya...good advice. thanks.
 
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