Run Off Speed

I'm looking for some batch sparging information. From everything I've read, you should run off as quickly as possible. What is the reason for this? Will a faster run off increase efficiency or would the opposite be true?

I have recently switched over to batch sparging. I drained off enough wort, just to clarify it, and recirculated that back over the grainbed. After that you should be able to draw it off with the valve wide open. This method seemed to work for me. I plan on doing it this way for each batch I make now.

Then you add in your sparge water, stir that in, and let it settle, draw off what would be the second runnings, recirculate the first, cloudy part, then draw off the remainder of the wort. This addressed in John Palmer's How To Brew book.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

Good Luck

Palmer says:
The wort should be drained slowly to obtain the best extraction.

Click to expand...

But it’s not clear if he is referring to batch or fly sparging or both. That is why I am curious if draining slowly will increase the efficiency of a batch sparge. Most here indicate that they drain fast, but I'd like to know why and the effects it has?

I used to fly sparge, and I was always drawing it off too fast. 1 qt. per minute is suggested. But that is for fly sparging. I had a major efficiency jump, when I went to batch sparging. Not to mention it went alot quicker, and was much easier too.

I crank the valve open enough to drain about 14 gallons in an hour for an 11-12 gallon batch.

The one time i hurried the sparge my eff. ended up alot lower, around 60% as opposed to the average of 80%.

Reverend JC wrote:
I crank the valve open enough to drain about 14 gallons in an hour for an 11-12 gallon batch.

Click to expand...

Do you batch or fly sparge?

I have never heard that it matters whether you run off fast or slow. I start slow for the vorlauf and then open the valve all the way once it clears.

The general concensous (though some disagree) is that the tradeoff between batch and fly sparging is efficiency versus time. The whole point of batch sparging is to shave a half hour or more off your brewday, so open the valve as far as it will go.

There's no implication of speed of runoff in batch sparging. When people say, run it off as fast as possible, the practical reason is because you can and not any particular effect on efficiency. Now, if you were fly sparging, the runoff speed has a direct impact on efficiency.

After my vorlauf, I just open the valve wide.

anoldur said:

Do you batch or fly sparge?

Click to expand...

Batch


And im not sure how that is saving you time. But then again i batch spage all at one time so my method is morphodite i guess. I mash 15 to 20lbs of grain in a keggle that will hold 7 gallons of sparge water plus what was already in there with my grain when mashing. When filled to the top i get about 12 to 14 gallons of wort.

All i know is with my system if i rush my sparge, even though i technically do a batch sparge i have a huge eff. problem.

From what I can tell, and as Bobby alluded to, time is the biggest advantage to batch sparging. The multiple additions of batch water thoroughly rinse the sugars from the grain and pull them into solution, this is why most mix during the sparge water additions. In a fly sparge, the sugars are washed over the grains such that the sugar density within the grain bed is gradient with less sugars at the top than the bottom. In batch sparging, the sugars should be evenly distributed in your sparge solution. Because the sugars are spread throughout, you can just let the valve rip as quick as it will go with no effect on your efficiency.

The good Reverend cannot do this because he is not mixing his grains and sparge water throughout the process.

Reverend, you might try sparging in 3 portions... vorlauf, drain 3 gallons fast, stir like a mad man, vorlauf, drain 3 gallons fast, etc. This may speed your process and will likely up your efficiency.

*DISCLAIMER* This is all just my opinion and I do not batch sparge so this whole discussion is just theoretical. Good luck with your process!

I have an English IPA ready to be brewed this weekend. I will give that a try and see how it affects eff.


They way i have been doing it is a half-a$$ed fly sparge. even though i have 8 to 10 inches of water above the grain bed i let it slowly drain out thus creating the rinsing action with out the fly sparge arm. Towards the end of the run off there is a dramatic decrese in fermentable wort.

but, if i can knock 45 min off my brew day and keep or increase my eff., all the better!

hmm... found this in johnny palmers book,

""Manifolds are less likely to allow the mash to become compacted during lautering, resulting in a stuck sparge, in which water will not flow through the grain bed. This brings us to the question-- what is the optimum outflow rate? There is a trade-off: if you lauter too quickly you will collect a lot of wort but have a low extraction, if you lauter too slowly you will have great extraction but you will take all day to do it. Most homebrewers use the rule of thumb of 1 quart per minute. If your extraction is low, i.e. less than 28 points/pound/gallon, you should try a lower flow rate. The best way to control your flow rate by using a ball valve or stopcock on the outflow.""

found here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17-2.html eleventh paragraph down...

also step 10 on this page of johnnys book: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter18-6.html

stevecaaster said:

hmm... found this in johnny palmers book,

""Manifolds are less likely to allow the mash to become compacted during lautering, resulting in a stuck sparge, in which water will not flow through the grain bed. This brings us to the question-- what is the optimum outflow rate? There is a trade-off: if you lauter too quickly you will collect a lot of wort but have a low extraction, if you lauter too slowly you will have great extraction but you will take all day to do it. Most homebrewers use the rule of thumb of 1 quart per minute. If your extraction is low, i.e. less than 28 points/pound/gallon, you should try a lower flow rate. The best way to control your flow rate by using a ball valve or stopcock on the outflow.""

found here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17-2.html eleventh paragraph down...

Click to expand...

Yes this is true for FLY SPARGING.

FLY SPARGING: uses concentration gradient and hence needs longer time to extract grains.

BATCH SPARGING: if sparge water is left in the MLT for long enough wort can be drained quickly because the wort-grain solution is approaching saturation. (Using the term 'saturation' loosely)

Reverend JC said:

I have an English IPA ready to be brewed this weekend. I will give that a try and see how it affects eff.


They way i have been doing it is a half-a$$ed fly sparge. even though i have 8 to 10 inches of water above the grain bed i let it slowly drain out thus creating the rinsing action with out the fly sparge arm. Towards the end of the run off there is a dramatic decrese in fermentable wort.

but, if i can knock 45 min off my brew day and keep or increase my eff., all the better!

Click to expand...

You know, there's really no difference between having 1" of water over the grainbed and having 25" over it except for the liklihood of compressing the bed under the pressure. From a rinsing perspective though, the grain doesn't know how much unsaturated water is sitting above it.

I'd agree though, your method is neither batch nor continuous.

nl724 said:

Yes this is true for FLY SPARGING.

FLY SPARGING: uses concentration gradient and hence needs longer time to extract grains.

BATCH SPARGING: if sparge water is left in the MLT for long enough wort can be drained quickly because the wort-grain solution is approaching saturation. (Using the term 'saturation' loosely)

Click to expand...

I'd add here that the length of time the sparge water needs to be in contact with the grain is directly proportional to the coarseness of crush. If you have a fine crush, you can sparge faster (in theory). This is also true of mash times. Finer crush grants easier accessibility during both the mash and sparge. Of course, if you go too fine you can can clog your runoff filter.

My crush is pretty fine, I dump my batch sparge water in, stir for 3 minutes, and open the valve full.

I batch sparge but I've been thinking of draining a little slower with my new mash tun. I have a 10 gallon round cooler now and I can drain all but 1/2 cup of water out of it (sitting level) because on the inside I put a bit of a dip tube all the way to the bottom of the cooler (about an inch from the opening for the sipigot) and then that pulls water/wort from the stainless steel braid.

I was wondering if I ran the spigot at full blast if the wort would not have time to drain out of the grain and into the braid before I lost my siphon and thus left wort in the mash tun.

I think that's a reasonable point. You can drain full blast for the first 3/4 of the volume you expect, then close the valve a little to make sure enough wort drops down to the opening of the siphon tube to keep up.