General All-Grain Setup and Equipment Question

I've now got a dozen or so extract batches under my belt and I'm ready to move to all-grain. I cook a lot and so far brewing has turned out way easier than I imagined, especially simple from extract. A well planned recipe, a bit of style, some common sense and good note taking with close temp control has given me some awesome beer.

So I'm piecing together a 10 gallon cooler mash tun but now I'm questioning the size of my current 8 gallon kettle for making 5 gallon batches.

If I'm doing 1-1.25qt water/pound grain for mashing and 2qt water/pound sparging as a general starting point... That means for a 10lb grain bill I'm using 10-12.5qt of water to mash and 20qt water to sparge which yields 8.1 gallons of wort and has just hit the limit of my current 8 gallon kettle.

I'm sure I can do 5 gallon all-grain batches in my 8 gallon kettle but if I want to do a couple of the big recipe's I've been eyeing they call for 17lb or more grain which means 14+ gallons of wort.

What am I missing? Do people really mash 17lbs of grain and make 14 gallons of wort that they then boil off down to 6.5 gallons or so? Palmer's example for your first all grain batch says an 8 gallon kettle should be fine for a 3 gallon mash and 4 gallon sparge, but his grain bill is about 8lbs.

I don't discount buying a larger Kettle, I'm just kind of wondering how far I can go with my current 8 gallon kettle. I've got about $100 cash to spend which was going to go toward a mash tun.

Remember the grains absorbe water as well. You could easily do 7 - 8 gallons of water to mash and sparge with, and may only end up with 5 - 6 gallons for the boil.

You should be perfectly fine using an 8 gallon pot for a 5 gallon batch. You are merely looking at numbers and not all the variables that go into the process

For example if you know that you only have 1 gallon per hour boil off and want 5 gallons in the primary then your volume of wort only needs to be 6 gallons pre boil.

Example for this:
13lb grain bill
1.25 qts/lb for mash=4.06 gallons strike water
.12gallons/lb absorption=.12x13=1.56gallons lost
First runnings then equal 4.06-1.56=2.5 gallons
6 gallons pre-boil volume-2.5 gallons 1st runnings = 3.5 gallons sparge water (There is no further absorption for sparging)

Hope this helps. If you plan on continuing AG brewing I would highly recommend getting some software and you can search and scroll through the brewing software threads for what's recommended.

Definitely. I figured I'd lose some water during the process, my estimates were more as checks since I wasn't sure I'd lose that much. Good point.

So maybe with an 8 gallon Kettle I could do a recipe that called for a bit more than 10lbs of grain. Obviously there is efficiency to account for, but I figure it's not worth starting a batch if I can't fit it into the kettle in the first place.

Nice Duboman. I'll have to look into the software portion. I've only been doing chicken scratch calcs on junk mail so far. It never hurts to plan. I'm definitely going to get a mash tun setup. I cook everything else in the house from scratch. I especially want to do a Rye IPA but it calls for a 17lb grain bill which I don't think will fit exactly.

If I used your break down for a 17lb grain bill:
1.25qt/lb mash = 5.31 gal strike water
.12 gal/lb abs. = 2.04 gal lost
First runnings = 3.27 gal water

Now correct me here... My current setup I find I boil off about 1.5-2 gallons liquid over a 60-90 minute boil. So should I consider my pre-boil volume more like 7.5 gallons instead of 6?

7.5 Pre-boil volume - 3.27 1st runnings = 4.23 gal sparge water

So that right there keeps my kettle from over filling, but 4.23 gal sparge water isn't probably enough to achieve a good efficiency since 17lb grain* .5gal/lb sparge = 8.5 gal sparge water needed.

I guess I can do a lot bigger beers than expected in my 8 gallon kettle, just maybe not a 17lb grain bill unless I started manipulating numbers with efficiency, water and pounds of grain used.

Now correct me here... My current setup I find I boil off about 1.5-2 gallons liquid over a 60-90 minute boil. So should I consider my pre-boil volume more like 7.5 gallons instead of 6?

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Yes, figure out close to what you boil off and what you want in the primary. If you want 5 finished gallons after fermentation plan on 5.25-5.5 as you will lose volume to trub.

So that right there keeps my kettle from over filling, but 4.23 gal sparge water isn't probably enough to achieve a good efficiency since 17lb grain* .5gal/lb sparge = 8.5 gal sparge water needed.

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Not exactly.
7.5 gallon pre boil volume
17lbs x 1.25 qt/lb = 5.31 gallons strike water
17lbs x .12 absorption = 2.04 gallons lost
First runnings =3.27 gallons

7.5 gallons-3.27 gallons=4.23 gallons required to sparge (There is no necessary ratio to calculate. The amount of sparge water used is the amount needed to get your pre boil volume after 1st runnings, nothing more. Pretty simple.

Now a couple things: Because you would be pushing the limits of your kettle you should consider an anti-foaming agent like Fermcap-S which will reduce/eliminate boil overs.

Losses. there are always some losses in the tun and the kettle that need to be taken into account when calculating your volumes and every system will be different, There will always be a little liquid left behind somewhere.

Ability to boil full volume. It is quite difficult to bring 7.5 gallons of wort to an adequate boil on a indoor stove so keep that in mind. Most people move boiling outside on propane burners. Those that stay inside sometimes will split the wort into two separate kettles to use 2 burners and then combine the wort into the same primary. Some will also span 2 burners with one kettle if the stove/kettle allows for this.

a 10 gallon mash tun can accommodate up to about 23# of grain for some really big beers although my experience is mash/lauter efficiency will suffer a bit as the grain bill increases in weight.

Keep in mind that I used 1.25 qts per pound for the mash. This would be on the lower end. Most that I know, me included go 1.5qts/lb so that will change some of these example numbers.

Good Luck!

Thanks Duboman. Great info. I'm definitely at my limit for indoor boiling. My stove can boil almost a full 8 gallons and my last six or so batches have been right at the limit. I've been preheating maybe 3.5+ gallons on the stove top while I steep grains so that once I add that I can add the extract and get it boiling again quickly. I'll maybe pull it off the heat while I add the DME but I've gotten it dialed now.

I'm more encouraged by the info for sure. For my first recipe I think the grain bill will be about 10-12 pounds and I'll make the same IPA recipe I've made four times but without extract. I was also thinking of trying an even simpler SMASH with just 2 Row and maybe some Warrior hops. Maybe toss a bit of citra in a tea ball in the keg for aroma.

It's good to know a sort of limit on the grain bill too for the mash tun. I don't foresee many 23# grain bills, but who knows. I figure with the mash tun my limiting factor becomes the kettle and as you mentioned with it a way to heat it. I bought the 8 gallon because I thought it was the biggest I could get to actually boil on stove top. Once I go beyond that I will have to find a propane burner and move outside.

I have a Bayou Classic 8 gallon brew pot and regardless whether I brew with 10 lbs of grain or 16-18 lbs, I always sparge till I hit the 7 gallon mark in my kettle then stop. I usually hit about 6 post boil gallons in the bucket, 5.5 into secondary (if dry hopping) and 5 into the keg.

Do you have another pot? Even a 2-3 gal pot? You can start your boil in2 pots and then combine after hot break clears.

I've got an 8 gallon kettle, and it is kinda pushing it. I need just shy of 7 gallons of wort pre-boil to end up with 5 gallons in the keg . That is on a pretty high IBU gas stove in the house. That is for a 60 minute boil. For a 90 minute, I need about 7.5 gallons. It fits, but there isn't much room to spare and obviously I need to babysit it.

If I was buying new equipment, I'd definitely go with a 10 gallon kettle. I don't strictly need the extra room, but the boil over protection is worth it.

I've got the 10 gal pot but am also a stove top brewer. Even with a high end range I find it helpful to spread the boil into at least a couple pots.

Next equipment purchase will be a proper propane burner, when its a bit warmer out, but a recent boil looked like this.

I went from 7.8 gal to 5.3 gal in 60 min... At turn off I combine all three int the big pot to chill and measure volume.

Lot of good info here, just want to say....

I do full boils, 5gal AG batches on my stove using a 8gal kettle. I use a 10gal mash tun cooler, and my last brew was a 18lb grain bill. 70% efficiency. I mashed in with about 5.8gal I think 2.2 got absorbed. I got 3.6 for a first runoff then fly sparged until I got a total of 6.5gal. Boil for an hour and im down to 5gal or so. OG on that brew after boil was 1.092

As mentioned earlier you can do about 23-24lbs of grain in a 10gal cooler. Its not really the size of the pot as it is the size of the mash tun. You will have more concentrated wort with the more grain.

The brew I did before my last 18lb bill was a 16lb recipe. Plenty of room in the mash tun and brew pot. Dont worry.

An 8 gallon kettle is about the smallest you want to use for a full boil. I used to use an 8 gallon but SWMBO just bought me an 11 gallon Bayou Classic!!!

I have a 10 gallon mash tun and that is more than sufficient for any 5 gallon batch i want to do. I am just in the process of hunting down a lauter tun so I don't have to put my first runnings into an empty fermenter while the I head the sparge water in my kettle.

Baby steps... baby steps.

If you cook a lot, you probably know how to control your stove temperature. Once you do your mash and drain, you know how much you need to sparge with to hit your pre-boil and if you know your boil off will be about a gallon so you only need to put about 6 1/2 gallons into the 8 gallon pot to start the boil. If you boil off a little more than expected you can top off with water at any time with the loss of efficiency that you would have gotten had you run that water through the mash as more sparge volume. I can do it in a 7 1/2 gallon pot, you surely can do it in an 8 gallon. Your major thing to watch for is boil over when your hot break comes. I've had to shut the burner off for a short period to control that. A spray bottle of water would have helped that too.

Awesome info. This answers so many questions I had with wort volume and boiling in multiple pots, etc.

I may have found a good price on a 15 gallon all SS pot for the future, but the mash tun is next on the list and about 10 more batches of beer to follow I'm gonna push my 8 gallon kettle to the max. Start off with some smaller beers and work my way up until I have the mashing/lautering dialed. Gonna go do a batch with a buddy in a couple weeks too and see how he does his entire setup.

Thanks guys. It helps so much to have a resource like this to hash out ideas and procedures.

Following up on RM-MN's point, I am relatively new to my set up, so I am not exactly sure of the boil off rate. I have an 8 gallon kettle and two 5-gallon coolers as my MT and HLT. I generally sparge until I hit 6.5 gallons in my brew kettle. I then add some additional sparge water to the MT and close it up and keep it for the first part of the boil. If I end up boiling off more than expected in the first 30 minutes or so, I will add more of the liquid from the MT (rather than just adding water). If you do this, keep in mind that you will go through another mini hot break so watch for boilovers.