oh and something else that's comical; Chris White from White Labs wrote a book about yeast and the "art" of rinsing/cleaning it... Yet we are supposed to listen to someone on a forum who says something with no source?
Reusing yeast - without washing
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You're still beating that drum, huh?
Just because you espouse it frequently, and loudly, doesn't make your opinion any more valuable.
Others in this thread have stated their opinion, and personal findings, that side-by-side brews using different yeast preservation methods presented identical results.
You're stating the opinion that there will be some difference of unknown quantity or quality, that makes your method superior to all others.
Seems the burden of proof is on your side of this debate, since you're the only one claiming a fact.
no, its a fact that putting varying amounts of yeast with hop particles and trub affects taste . You listen to people on here and I'll listen to pros
there are many podcasts and articles by people like Gordon Strong, John Palmer and jamil zainasheff etc. That I read and listen to often... They discuss these topics. Do what you want but at least try to back it up with a source if you give it as advice.earwig said:no, its a fact that putting varying amounts of yeast with hop particles and trub affects taste . You listen to people on here and I'll listen to pros
Could you please send us the link to the podcast?
no, its a fact that putting varying amounts of yeast with hop particles and trub affects taste . You listen to people on here and I'll listen to pros
i don't see how trub affects the flavor of beer in a negative way, or any way for that matter. i don't think people are pitching rotten trub/yeast into their beer and if it didn't cause an off flavor in the first beer when does it start causing off flavors? the second or third? the 4th? if people are reusing unwashed yeast and making excellent beer who can argue with that? same goes for the washed yeast crowd, you can't go wrong either way. just because a commercial brewer does or does not do it is irrelevant to me because the proof is in MY pudding.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
Getting heated in here boys.
some good ones are at beersmith.com click the link at the top for podcast.
I never said great beer wasn't being made. I said pitching it with trub makes it difficult to know how much yeast you are really pitching. I also said it would be hard to replicate a recipe since it would be very difficult to get the conditions the same.
A lot of how a beer's flavor comes out is determined from the yeast health and amount. If you are putting a "scoop" of yeast in your beer with both yeast and trub that is going to vary from time to time so you'll be pitching a different amount that was produced under different conditions if you want to brew the same beer in 2 years. It would make it very difficult to give your receipe to someone else to brew as well.
People are talking about just pitching the yeast and trub without mentioning that you shouldn't reuse it if the gravity of a previous batch was over 1.065 or how going from a lighter to a darker beer is prefered etc. This tells me that they don't know or don't care...which is fine, but as I said earlier not ideal.
I'm on my phone so I apologize if I have 20 typos.
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about personal experience working in about a dozen breweries over a lot of years, including a few I am sure you have heard of; Rogue, Bell's and Breckenridge... never once have I seen anyone wash yeast... one colleague mentioned doing an acid wash ONCE and decided it was too much of a PITA... always just harvest and pitch. I am not talking about pitching a bunch of trub as you seem to be suggesting... whether harvesting from a Unitank or a 5 gallon bucket it is easy to get good yeast out while leaving most of the chunks behind.
the people here were talking about pitching an unspecified amount "scooped" up. The breweries you mention use conical fermenters that allow you to run out the trub from the bottom before collecting the good yeast that would follow. At home scooping up a bunch and putting it in another beer is just not ideal. I mentioned earlier that mr malty's pitch rate calculator only goes up to 25% non-yeast. If you are pitching a scoop of trub and yeast there's no way the non-yeast amount will be under 25%.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Christ White on the Sunday Session, 1/11/09:
Justin: He wants to know how to separate yeast and trub on a home brew level. Now, I don't want you to answer that question if you say its unnecessary. Cuz F it. If you say its unecessary, we don't have to go through this process. Do we have to?
Chris: I think it's uneccessary. You're also losing some sterols by getting rid of that trub. So unless you've got a LOT of trub, generally there's not enough there to be a problem.
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
Some were unitanks, yes, but dish bottomed and open ferms were used as well. For instance, when I was at Bell's only open fermenters were used. Generally speaking we top-cropped, but scheduling did not allow for this 100% of the time. What did we do? Scoop from the bottom after xfering out to bottling tanks. You CAN get good yeast off the bottom of a fermenter by scooping it up, it does work... it is also not hard to leave the bulk of the trub behind. As the Chris White quote disc mentions states, it's only a problem if you have a lot of trub.
While there is certainly truth to your statement that you can't be certain of the proportions of yeast to trub when scooping (although, again, it is easy to leave most of the chunks behind), in practice it is not really that big of deal. Harvest a reasonable volume and go with it, a minor swing in lag time is preferable, IME, to introducing another step and potential source of contamination.
You also made the statement that, "Commercial breweries wash their yeast. I'm not sure what you are talking about." While a FEW do wash yeast, it is not common practice at all. Amongst those who do, it is most often acid washing which is about killing off bacteria, not trub removal. Even that practice is considered less than perfect because it can damage the yeast to an extent and still allow certain bacteria to make it through.
Although the thread is mostly on washing vs not washing and how to wash, I found it interesting that no one mentioned the prior batch's influence. I don't know the specifics of the clone you brewed, but it does raise a little concern.
First when reusing yeast, I've read that your yeast has already been stressed from the higher alcohol first batch. IPAs can range in strengths and perhaps the clone isn't that strong of one. It usually better practice to use the yeast slurry from a weaker beer to be reused on a stronger beer.
Secondly, IPAs are highly hopped. Its better to reuse yeast from a lower hopped beer. One of the ways hops preserve beer is that the resin & oils coat the cells of bacteria. They also coat the yeast cells, which may limit the yeast's viability.
With all that being said, you're probably just fine.
On the topic of the original thread, I've often just siphoned a beer from the primary and poured the next batch directly into the unwashed fermentor & yeast cake. I've usually done this with the second beer being a barley wine. I've never had off flavors from trub, dead yeast. My last BW did have some off flavors, but I think they were more from the not-so-good oxidation flavors. Although it's effective, I think in the future I won't do this and instead look at the slurry pitching rates.
If you are just scooping up yeast from the bottom of the bucket there will be "a LOT" of trub. Can u post a link to that interview? Im interested in reading it/listening. Thank you.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/470
at 1:58 hour mark:
Chris White: I don't like to do a lot to it actually, you might think i talk about a lot of manipulation with that yeast cake. I like getting the beer off, swirling the fermenter, and you gotta swirl those fermenters pretty hard sometimes to get the yeast off, because they're sticking at the bottom. and if you just pour it off and you leave the good sticky stuff behind, you're leaving a lot of yeast behind. so you really gotta mix it up and get it swirling, and collect it into a sanitized container, and put that sanitized container into the fridge. (he then talks about venting while its in the fridge, various fart jokes from the show) I don't like washing it, I don't like manipulating it. Those aren't bad things to do, and if you're doing those things that's ok, or feeding it with more sugar, but you just have more of a risk of contamination every time you mess with it.
Doc: Are you saying maybe that's just going overboard and doing more than you have to do?
Chris White: Right, there's a benefit to it to the yeast, so there's a reason why it can be a good thing, but the disadvantages are just too high.
Then the quote above is from 2:07 in the same show.
Jamil Zainesheff from Brew Strong, 3-23-2009:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/492
Jamil: The best way to do this, is, get yourself, uh, I prefer a sterile container, so what i use is this naglene type (and then he rambles on about sizes and plastic types for bottles and sterilizing in a pressure cooker)... when i rack my beer out of my carboy or bucket or whatever it might be, i'll swirl the carboy around, break up the yeast cake on the bottom, i leave like a half inch of beer in there. Swirl it real good, break everything up, and then i will flame the opening on the carboy. And then i pour that into the sterile container, and then i put it in the fridge, and that's all i do with it.
Because it saves me between $3 and $9 per batch! With washing yeast, I can do a 5 gallon batch of a good beer (e.g. SN Celebration) for under $15 in ingredient costs (figuring $1/batch with re-using yeast).
Edit: Never mind, I need coffee in the morning. This is an intriguing idea, and you could even make a bunch of yeast via a fresh package and starter. But it's not much different than doing a batch (except no hops
)?
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Although I do find it interesting that you ask for links to interviews after you yourself gave this response when asked the same question:
I'm mostly just giving you a hard time, but if you want others to put the effort to serve you their sources up on a platter, you might consider doing the same.
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
Only if you aren't careful... some, yes, a lot, not really. It would take massive amounts of trub to outweigh the potential for contamination. The quotes from Chris White pretty much convey the industry opinion on this. Try search "yeast washing" on probrewer.com and see what kind of hits you get. I would wager that there would five or fewer posts that even mention it, and only one or two of those that recommend it.
While it's true that it is easier to avoid picking up trub when dropping yeast out of a unitank, other fermentation vessels are used commercially; open, dish-bottom, horizontal (the later two more common as brite tanks, but still frequently used for fermentation)... it is harder to remove the junk from these when harvesting yeast, but it doesn't stop anyone from consistently making quality beer.
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
Because it saves me between $3 and $9 per batch! With washing yeast, I can do a 5 gallon batch of a good beer (e.g. SN Celebration) for under $15 in ingredient costs (figuring $1/batch with re-using yeast).
Edit: Never mind, I need coffee in the morning. This is an intriguing idea, and you could even make a bunch of yeast via a fresh package and starter. But it's not much different than doing a batch (except no hops
I fell the same way in the morning.
severum
Member
I have been brewing for sixteen years. Never washed yeast once. Not worth the effort. As long as you are re-pitching with similar styles or within reason.......pale ale to a stout....but not necessarily an DIPA to a cream ale. Wasted wasted effort. Period.
Severum
Severum
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Ha! Interesting! Listening further along in the Brewstrong I referenced above, JZ just said that prior to pitching, he adds sterile water to the yeast, shakes it up, and allows the trub to settle, then pitches the liquid. So apparently he DOES rinse yeas, he just does it right prior to pitching, rather than prior to storing, which is interesting, because I've typically heard that one of the advantages of rinsing is yeast health during storage.
So, updated, it sounds like Jamil advocates pre-pitch rinsing of sorts. I guess its directionally less likely to cause sanitation problems, because there's no time for any bacteria you introduce during rinsing to reproduce prior to being pitched into the full wort?
So, updated, it sounds like Jamil advocates pre-pitch rinsing of sorts. I guess its directionally less likely to cause sanitation problems, because there's no time for any bacteria you introduce during rinsing to reproduce prior to being pitched into the full wort?
cyclonite
Well-Known Member
This is essentially what I do if I am re-pitching a yeast cake. I will do a 1-step washing (instead of my normal 2-step):
1) Boil up about 1/2 gallon of water, let it cool to room temp.
2) Rack beer off of yeast cake.
3) Pour boiled water into fermenter and give it a good swirl/shake.
4) Cool fermenter for about 1/2 to 1 hour to let trub particulates precipitate
5) Pour contents into sanitized 1 gallon jar (pour until you start getting trub sludge)
6) Put jar in fridge (usually overnight) and let other particulates precipitate
7) Decant liquid until yeast starts to pour out
8) Pitch the rest into wort
Doing this, you don't get much trub sludge - most of what you are getting is the washed yeast. You do get more sludge than a 2-step washing (the only difference is at step 7, you pour into individual jars until you hit trub sludge), but I think it is minimal. I used washed yeast calculations for my pitch rate when doing this. Works great, minimal work, and I usually get a lag time of < 6 hours.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
This seems oddly backward at points. Glad it works for you.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
bcryan said:
I'll answer on his behalf. Boiled and then chilled water. Boiled, not boiling.
My comments were to people scooping up yeast trub and all and just pitching varying amounts of it willy/nilly not being concerned about the amount of trub etc. Harvesting from a fermenter that lets you run out most of the trub first is not the same. It isn't full blown rinsing but it sure isn't what people in here were talking about when I started chiming in. Also, adding water and letting it settle like Chris does is washing the yeast; not the best job but he is able to separate some of the yeast from the trub. I haven't read or heard of anyone who would do what the folks were talking about in the beginning of this thread.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Truth be told, I usually add a gallon or so of clean water to the cake to loosen it up, leave in roughly one cup of yeast and whatever else, pitch new wort on.
This may be a bastardized washing even though washing is not the intent.
This may be a bastardized washing even though washing is not the intent.
I guess whatever works for you. I tried to at least come close to pitching the right amout that a receipe calls for.
But if people pitch directly on top of a yeast cake all the time, why couldn't you do what was being talked about in the start of the thread. The notion of off flavors doesn't make sense to me, all that stuff is just gonna settle right back to the bottom not to mention that stuff gets created while fermenting anyways and it doesn't cause off flavors. seems to me like it is feasible for it to work.
I'm a time is money kinda guy, I recently washed yeast a couple times just to learn how to do it but honestly, I'm brewing beer for me and some friends, I'm not a corporation, I'd rather just tack 6 bucks onto the cost of my batch and buy new yeast. I also live in a small apt so keeping it stored in the fridge is an issue
You said it yourself. Just had to point that out. No need to keep trying to convert people to do practices that you feel are the right way.Everyone has different opinions and practices I guess.
Like I like to say: If we all did something only one way, because someone before us says it's the only way to do it, we would all be naked and still living in caves.As for me, I have washed my yeast a couple times, but I don't anymore. I feel it works just as well to wash or not wash, and I haven't seen any ill effects from not washing. If you wash, you do run a much higher risk of infecting your yeast compared to not washing, but in return you do get clean yeast. Depending on the batch, the amount of trub will be minimal in comparison to the amount of beer you are pitching it into. So unless you are making a Coor's Extra Extra Extra Light clone, I don't think you would notice any difference in taste with the little bit of trub from harvested yeast. Unless of course, you are pitching an ENTIRE yeast cake into your beer.
When I want to harvest the yeast from a batch, I have to plan ahead before I even make the batch that I am harvesting from. Normally I throw all the hops and everything into the batch all willy-nilly and let it do it's thing. If I am going to harvest from that batch of beer, I'll contain all the hops as best as I can in nylon bags, and I'll let the batch sit for an hour or so after cooling to help settle out all the break material. When fermentation is complete, the yeast is much cleaner that if I didn't bother with separating the hops out, but it's still not perfectly clean.
I'm still waiting for someone to taste my beer and say, "Did you used unwashed yeast? Because it tastes like you did."
cyclonite
Well-Known Member
discnjh said:I'll answer on his behalf. Boiled and then chilled water. Boiled, not boiling.
What he said ;-). Boiled, as in sanitized (cooled to room temp). Yeah, boiling water would be bad!
Beninan, I just choose to try and get as close to the proper pitching amount as possible. I never suggested that people who don't wash the yeast were making crappy beer. I just like to be able to replicate something again or share it with people. Pitching different amounts changes the flavor of the beer and the amount of time that it takes to "age". Its whatever... I was just giving my opinion and trying to explain why I feel this way. I have to say... I never had an infected batch of washed yeast or beer and it takes me maybe 15 minutes tops. I think the time spent is worth it.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
No, but you did state that not washing was a "horrible practice", so perhaps you'll excuse anyone for thinking you may have been implying that.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
I usually wash my yeast (although I packed up two mason jars of unwashed cake yesterday after following this thread
) and it does not take 15 minutes. You have to boil/cool water, which takes the better part of an hour, then spend as much as 40 minutes washing (if you do the double wash as described in "yeast washing illustrated"). It yields a beautifully "clean" product that has never caused infection in my experience, but it takes considerably more time than dumping cake in a jar.
I usually wash my yeast (although I packed up two mason jars of unwashed cake yesterday after following this thread
I only wash once and prepare everything at the same time as I am getting my bottling stuff clean etc. Filling a small pot with water and letting it cool while I am bottling takes me really no time at all. I don't count the time that the trub/yeast is sitting in the fridge separating "work" time.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Implying that I am not?
Come off it big guy.
Sure I am eyeballing it, but with out a really specialized computer and an electron microscope, SO ARE YOU. How can you claim to be more accurate than me?
Wanna compare beers?
Name it.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
SecretBrew
Active Member
U guys should have a beer off! I can be the judge!
