WhiteLabs Yeast: Any prep needed?
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Edcculus
Well-Known Member
I would make a starter.
Here are some references if you need help:
14 Essential Questions about Yeast Starters
Jamil's Pitching Rate Calculator
Homebrew Wiki on starters
Here are some references if you need help:
14 Essential Questions about Yeast Starters
Jamil's Pitching Rate Calculator
Homebrew Wiki on starters
rsmith179
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Although you can "technically" pitch a vial directly into the primary, it is always good to do a starter. Starters are great to get the yeast cell count up to get a quick fermentation and also ensures that you have a viable tube of yeast. It doesn't happen often where you get a bad batch of yeast, but who knows. At least a starter confirms that the yeast is alive and kickin!
HOOTER
Well-Known Member
Ditto. I used to pitch directly, but when I started making starters my lag time dropped significantly. I usually use dry yeast but when I use liquid, I make starters.
rsmith179
Well-Known Member
Couldn't you do a starter with your dried yeast just like you do with your liquid? Are there any benefits to not doing a starter with dry yeast?
HOOTER
Well-Known Member
Dry yeast already has a very high cell count, so a starter isn't necessary. However, I always rehydrate dry yeast. Some say this isn't necessary (the same people who say starters aren't necessary either) but I've noticed a shorter lag time when rehydrating.
SumnerH
Well-Known Member
A package of dry yeast has c. 200 billion viable cells.
If you're doing a 5 gallon batch of a 1.060 OG ale, you want to pitch 208 billion cells. So for beer under that gravity, making a starter with dry yeast would just make you overpitch if anything. Over 1.060 (or more than 5 gallons) you'd consider a starter even with dry yeast.
A typical White labs vial or Wyeast smack pack has c. 100 billion viable cells, so even with smaller beers you need a starter to reach the right cell counts to pitch.
In addition to the reasons above, making a starter less than a gallon does not provide enough space or resources for that many yeast to grow, so for normal sized starters you do not get much yeast growth when using a dry yeast.
Another reason is that it is much easier and nearly as cost effective to just pitch 2 packs of dry yeast as it would be to make a starter.
With a low gravity beer, you can directly pitch the WLP tube in the beer after allowing it to warm to pitching temps. However as noted it is usually a good idea to make a starter with WhiteLabs tubes and Wyeast Activator packs.
Craig
bgough
Well-Known Member
Would it be ok to just pitch 2 vials of white labs yeast to get to 200 billion cell count instead of doing a starter?
Besides the quicker start....I've found that my est FG is actually reached when I pitch a starter. When I was just pitching the vial of yeast, I always came up short..... If you have time, make a starter. I've gotten into this habit..... Gonna brew this weekend so, Tuesday (today), I go to my LBS and pick up my ingredients, come home, get a starter going.....Beef it up on Thursday with more DME and it's ready by Saturday or Sunday. KISS. Sure you could pitch two vials of yeast...but at 8.50 a pop (what my LBS charges) that's quite a hefty sum. With no special tools......Growler/mason jar, some DME, water and plastic wrap....you can make a starter. Later you can worry about stir-plates and flasks........
flyangler18
Well-Known Member
Sure, but I thinks that's a waste of an extra vial. It's much more cost-effective to make the starter.
Tonedef131
Well-Known Member
Yeah but dude making starters is fun, it's like a mini brew day before brew day. Plus it's good insurance to make sure the yeast are awake and viable.
You know this makes me wonder something, this question of starter has always confused me. I've never done a starter, and I've used liquid yeasts, and always seem to get excellent attenuation. I.e. I have an IPA right now still in secondary that started at 1.075 OG, and is already at 1.009 86.8% attenuation. I've never had bad attenuation and get activity almost always within 24 hrs and fermentation is done by 4 or 5 days almost every time too. (per my sg readings for several days in a row, etc.) I understand realistically that there's optimal pitching rate of 200bill cell count and all, but I thought that's what the yeast does in the initial phase anyway, reproduces like mad for a certain number of hours, before moving to yum yum eat up the sugar phase... therefore why do I need to worry so much about a starter? One of my biggest concerns of a starter is most times I'd have to use DME and doesnt' that stand a good chance of changing the flavor of my AG brew if I pitch in a dme and yeast starter? All my beers have tasted great too, some needed a little time to sit and age a bit more, but that was only like a week or two more than the initial 3ish weeks I usually go before kegging. Help understanding the need for a starter would really help. I keep reading everyone saying its really needed and lots of stats like the number of cells needed, etc... why does my yeast work so well then w/o off flavors or bad attenuation?
MacBruver
Well-Known Member
If your OG is not too high and the yeast is fresh you can directly pitch white labs yeast without any problems. For the stout I just brewed, which was only 1.045, I followed this procedure:
- get the yeast out of the fridge when you start your boil, or a bit before. Shake the yeast up a bunch to rouse it, and crack the top on the vial to release any pressure.
- set it aside somewhere not too hot
- when it's time to pitch, give it a shake again, and pitch it directly.
I was out of the house for about 24 hours so I didn't see exactly when fermentation started, but at the 24 hour mark it was very vigorous. around 80 bubbles a minute out of the airlock, and by the time I checked it at the 48 hour mark, I had some good krausen going.
If your wort is high gravity or there is any question as to whether the yeast is viable, go for a starter. It's worth the time. I will be doing one for my pale ale, which is supposed to be like 1.065. Need some extra yeasties for that beastie!
- get the yeast out of the fridge when you start your boil, or a bit before. Shake the yeast up a bunch to rouse it, and crack the top on the vial to release any pressure.
- set it aside somewhere not too hot
- when it's time to pitch, give it a shake again, and pitch it directly.
I was out of the house for about 24 hours so I didn't see exactly when fermentation started, but at the 24 hour mark it was very vigorous. around 80 bubbles a minute out of the airlock, and by the time I checked it at the 48 hour mark, I had some good krausen going.
If your wort is high gravity or there is any question as to whether the yeast is viable, go for a starter. It's worth the time. I will be doing one for my pale ale, which is supposed to be like 1.065. Need some extra yeasties for that beastie!
MacBruver
Well-Known Member
One of my biggest concerns of a starter is most times I'd have to use DME and doesnt' that stand a good chance of changing the flavor of my AG brew if I pitch in a dme and yeast starter?If you're doing a 2L starter, you're talking half a pound of LME, which is not going to change anything drastically. On top of that, LME doesn't have a terribly large amount of character on its own, so it's not going to change much of anything.
You probably have a good yeast provider, and you're using fresh stuff... you should feel fortunate.If the yeast is getting old, it might have half of the 100 billion cells that it started out with, so it will lag considerably more and be stuck in that multiplication phase for much longer.
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Mencken
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One problem I have is timing. I am leaving town on Friday morning for 10 days or so, and I would like to get this brewed tomorrow if possible. From what I've read, a starter needs more time than this allows. Also, I am brewing a mini mash from AHB, and the malt is liquid, not dry. Does that change things?
Would it be sufficient to boil some water with some sugar, then pitch the yeast into that, three hours or so before it gets pitched with the beer? This seems to activate it, and definitely will tell me if the yeast is alive or dead. Thoughts?
And thanks for all teh great responses
Would it be sufficient to boil some water with some sugar, then pitch the yeast into that, three hours or so before it gets pitched with the beer? This seems to activate it, and definitely will tell me if the yeast is alive or dead. Thoughts?
And thanks for all teh great responses
rsmith179
Well-Known Member
Very interesting guys... thanks for the heads up regarding the dried yeast. Didn't realize there were that many cells in that small package!
Bgough, if you're willing to spend upwards of $12-15 dollars per batch for two vials, by all means go ahead. There won't be any negatives to doing that besides the cost. I actually did this before I had time to make a starter once. Although it was more expensive, I'm glad I went out and bought the second vial to ensure that I did not underpitch.
Bgough, if you're willing to spend upwards of $12-15 dollars per batch for two vials, by all means go ahead. There won't be any negatives to doing that besides the cost. I actually did this before I had time to make a starter once. Although it was more expensive, I'm glad I went out and bought the second vial to ensure that I did not underpitch.
MacBruver
Well-Known Member
Sugar ain't gonna cut it, the yeast need a lot of other things to be happy. I would use some of your LME. There is nothing wrong with doing this except measuring it out, which is a real pain. There are plenty of threads here about using LME for starter.
You're still going to get some benefit from getting the starter going only 24 hours in advance. Go for it!
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Mencken
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Thanks for the reply. Just kind of winged it for the starter...well, somewhat educated winging at least. I figure it's unlikely I'd have killed the yeast, so worst case scenario, it'll be as if I did nothing. I hope that's the case anyways, lol
MacBruver
Well-Known Member
Bob
Well-Known Member
You're a lucky brewer! Most brewers don't have anywhere near that kind of experience.
Because cell count is more than just a number. That 'rule of thumb' number encompasses a variety of factors, from the attenuation goals and lag time (which you've already mentioned) to ester production in the reproductive phase (which you haven't).
Ester production or lack thereof is crucial to successfully brewing most styles. The reason you pitch so much more yeast in a lager than an ale is to suppress the production of esters in the reproductive phase. A Pilsner should have little if any ester profile Ales, on the other hand, need to have those esters to a greater or lesser extent; a Belgian ale isn't a Belgian ale without the yeast-specific flavors, and all those flavors are imparted in the reproductive phase. Thus for ales a smaller amount of active cells should be pitched compared to a lager beer.
If you have excessive esters in your beer, or experience odd aromas during the ferment, you're underpitching.
Nope. First of all, a half-pound of DME isn't going to do anything to five gallons of any wort save, possibly, Light American Lager. Second, you're presuming you're to pitch the entire starter. While you can do that if you like, I always recommend chilling the starter, decanting the spent starter wort, and pitching the slurry.
Again, it is in my opinion blind luck.
Let me further state that 'off flavors' can be more than nasty flavors. The beer can be 'off' if you get too many esters from underpitching. An English ale should be fruity, but the fruity esters should be restrained; it the beer is fruity as Miami's South Beach on New Year's Eve, something is wrong with it, and I guarantee it's underpitching.
Cheers!
Bob
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