When to move to secondary?

I made my very first batch of beer on Saturady. Its an all grain oatmeal stout. initial SG at time of yeast pitch was 1.05 after as of last night it was 1.01 I had to take the lid off for a little clean up. figured I would take a SG reading and get a taste sample while I was at it. So far the airlock has not moved at all today. I can only assume primary fermentation is finished. I will have time to move to a secondary five days from today. My question if when I move to a secondary. should I put it in a carboy for a week or two or can I put it in a corny and put it in the fridge for a week or two?

I go to secondary after 7 days normally without taking a gravity reading. I feel comfortable that I've done it enough times to know roughly when its needed. I go into a plastic bucket, and have no idea about kegs. Also, 1.010 is as low as your gonna get. I think you should move it over.

You do know that there's no actual NEED for you to rack to a second vessel, right?? Just give it more time in primary and you'll get great results. Plus you remove an unnecessary racking and don't expose the brew to additional risks of oxidation, infection and contamjnation.

After the beer has hit FG, the yeast may still have more work to do cleaning up their mess. If the fermentation temp was too high, for example, or there was not enough yeast pitched, so they were stressed out.

This cleaning process is better done when there is more yeast (rather than less- like when you move it to secondary). I would let it ride a total of 2 or so weeks in primary, taste it and if OK, then keg it up. Once kegged, I put it in fridge overnight-- presuming there is room- otherwise it sits on the side ("on deck").
Once beer is at fridge temps, then I add C02 to carb at 12psi, and try to wait 5-7 days before tasting. I will take more time to fully carb but I get impatient.

I second Golddiggie. Unless you plan on adding fruit or something to your fermentation, there really is no reason to use a secondary, especially for ales. 3 weeks and you're good to go. I've left some as long as 5 though I prefer not to.
May I ask why you want to rack to a secondary?

With an OG of 1.050, three weeks should be plenty of time for the yeast to have cleaned up after themselves, flavors to become even better, and the yeast to flocculate out (to the bottom of the fermenter). Of course, that last part depends on which yeast you used and it's flocculation rating. I use liquid yeast that's rated high, or above. I also do more to help the yeast to do it's job and give me something great. Things that are pretty easy to do once you think about it. Such as giving the yeast enough oxygen (you do this before pitching the yeast) via a pure O2 infusion system. Adding nutrient to the boil. Making a yeast starter (on a stirplate) so that closer to the proper amount of viable yeast cells are pitched.

All those things go a long way towards giving you a great brew time and again. Of course, I also give my batches at least three weeks in primary. I've gone up to 8 weeks in primary for bigger (higher OG) batches of beer.

The ONLY time I'll rack to another vessel is to age it on/with something that does a better job off of the yeast. Things like oak (and other toasted woods), vanilla beans, and such. Just racking because some instruction sheet said to, or the yackoff at the LHBS (who's using 20+ year out of date methods) said to doesn't fly with me. Especially when I get great, clear, brew time and again by NOT racking except when it makes complete sense to. IMO/IME, doing it as a blanket process just isn't wise, or needed.

Golddiggie said:

You do know that there's no actual NEED for you to rack to a second vessel, right?? .

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There is no NEED to leave it in the primary until bottling.

amandabab said:

There is no NEED to leave it in the primary until bottling.

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What????

It makes FAR more sense to leave it in primary until it's ready to go to bottle, or keg, than to rack it to another vessel and then rack again to either bottling bucket or keg. Each time you rack you open it up to contamination, oxidation and infection risks... IMO seriously not worth doing.

People that rack too soon, or to another vessel thinking they'll get the brew to clear, are also [very often] those same people that post up asking about how to clear via cold crashing, or complain about how their brew tastes like wet cardboard now. Or how it got infected and now bottles are blowing all over the place. Seriously, use the KISS principle unless the batch has another flavor element to be added that works BEST off of/away from the yeast. That's a short list of items too.

Besides, it's only a secondary fermentation IF you add more sugars, or something that will eat the remaining sugars that your yeast could not.

BTW, the vast majority of brews made with ale yeast do just fine with an extended primary.

Golddiggie said:

You do know that there's no actual NEED for you to rack to a second vessel, right??

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amandabab said:

There is no NEED to leave it in the primary until bottling.

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Well, IMO both of these statements are wrong.




. . . but Golddiggie did make up for it with this.

Golddiggie said:

IMO/IME, doing it as a blanket process just isn't wise, or needed.

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Oh . . . and fixed this for you.

Golddiggie said:

BTW, the vast majority of brews made with ale yeast do just fine with an extended primary, but with good technique it's not necessary.

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yeah, tomorrows a holiday, i be ing

AnOldUR, my original statement was referencing the OP's batch... For a stout, you don't need to rack to another vessel. You can get just as good (if not better) results by leaving it in primary until going to bottle/keg.

Since he's going to keg, transferring from primary to keg is a better choice, IMO. Just make sure to rack clean and you'll be fine.

Why did you have to remove the lid for clean up?

Well, what if he NEEDS his primary for another batch and the beer hasn't cleared. What if he NEEDS the yeast for his next batch and the beer hasn't cleared yet . . .

Just saying that the party line blanket statement, that there's no NEED to transfer, is a little short sighted.

A little attention to sanitation and purging the secondary vessle make it a perfectly safe practice (edit) when it's needed.

Isn't the word NEED emphasized? So reasons like needing yeast or that brew bucket would be secondary reasons that would fall outside of NEED and be more on the side of convenience?

AnOldUR said:

Well, what if he NEEDS his primary for another batch and the beer hasn't cleared. What if he NEEDS the yeast for his next batch and the beer hasn't cleared yet . . .

Just saying that the party line blanket statement, that there's no NEED to transfer, is a little short sighted.

A little attention to sanitation and purging the secondary vessle make it a perfectly safe practice (edit) when it's needed.

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Racking to a secondary because you need the equipment for another brew isn't the same issue as "needing" to rack because the beer in the fermenter right now needs it in order to be made well. They are two completely separate issues.

This is a great example of why it's good to always, under every possible circumstance in your life, completely and totally avoid using absolute terms.

Yeah, your right. And there's no need to brew your own beer. I'd be more "convenient" to just buy it.

If he's in need of a fermenter for another batch, then I suggest going out and getting another fermenter. Right now I have three primaries to use for my regular size beer batches. I also have one that will work for 10-12 gallon batches. I have about six that are good for my batches of mead. Chances of me having ALL of them full and needing to vacate one is slim at best (more often nil). I actually schedule batches so that I always have at least one primary free.

If he wants to harvest the yeast, an extra week or two will do no harm (3-4 weeks total). Chances of the yeast actually dying off within a few months is rather remote, unless he puts them into conditions where it's going to happen (most won't do that).

There are plenty of recipes out there distributed by HBS with sheets that advise racking after X days when it's really not needed. In fact, you'll get BETTER beer by leaving them in primary for the full term. Unfortunately, the people that sells those kits often do not know, understand, realize this and cling to methods from over 20 years ago.

I'm fermenting a pumpkin ale right now. Would you suggest just adding pumpkin to primary or move to secondary and then add pumpkin?

Thanks go all of the great info. I don't need another primary yet. I have made wine a few times and this was my first try at beer. I dove right in and went all grain with a 15gal pot to allow for the option of 10g batches. When making wine you rack regularly to keep your wine off of the yeast to prevent off flavors from yeast consuming yeast. I am excited and want to chill and carb this brew ASAP. Not to mention Safeway has peaches on sale for .77 a pound I want to make peach wine. However this is a want not a need. I will be patient and rack to a keg in a couple 2-3 weeks.

I removed the lid because beer had foamed out from under it and made a mess. And I cleaned up the solid goo that was under the lid. To prevent it from molding. (common with wine making) I now know that the goo had been boiled and should not mold.

Dcodd87 you're hijacking the post, but I'll answer anyway. You need to caramelize the pumpkin. And i've always added it to primary. It's pretty filthy stuff in regards to consistency and racking. you might want to try no pumpkin at all and going with a dry hop of cinnamon, vanilla, clove or allspice

Glad to hear you know that you don't need to crack it open in the future. I'd still keep the external bucket clean, but no need to clean while it's doing it's thing.

Yeah it's way different then opening it every day to stir it. I did sample it and so far it's very good.

OK. not to hijack, but asking a sidebar. would the things being said about moving to a second vessel hold true for lager yeast as well as ale? I've got my first lager in my chamber, and am hoping to do a bang up job with it, and host an octoberfest for my birthday.

so is it best to do primary, d-rest and lagering all in the same vessel?

Thats a very good question and as a noob myself I don't have an answer. I was wondering about saving my yeast and starting another batch?

I've looked at my recipe book again, and it says to ferment at 55 for 5-7 days, then to move to secondary for lagering. I guess that's what I'm going to do.

You do not need to leave the beer on the yeast cake for it to clean up after itself. The yeast in the cake have dropped out because they are not very metabolically active. The yeast that are in suspension are the ones doing the work. So if one's reason to leave the beer on the yeast cake is for better clean up, that is an incorrect reason. There are other reasons why one might want to leave the beer on the yeast, but better clean up is not one of them. Then again there is nothing wrong with using a secondary if you want to

Since the OP is kegging, it would be perfectly fine to let if ferment for 7-10 days, and then transfer it to the keg and let it mature further there. The only time I use a true secondary prior to kegging is for dry hopping, however most of my Ales are in the keg within two weeks of brew date

midfielder5 said:

After the beer has hit FG, the yeast may still have more work to do cleaning up their mess. If the fermentation temp was too high, for example, or there was not enough yeast pitched, so they were stressed out.

This cleaning process is better done when there is more yeast (rather than less- like when you move it to secondary). I would let it ride a total of 2 or so weeks in primary, taste it and if OK, then keg it up. Once kegged, I put it in fridge overnight-- presuming there is room- otherwise it sits on the side ("on deck").
Once beer is at fridge temps, then I add C02 to carb at 12psi, and try to wait 5-7 days before tasting. I will take more time to fully carb but I get impatient.

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Excellent advice. I taste way too much off flavored beer from beginners who rush the process. Give it time, it will be worth it. I do a minimum of 2 weeks in the primary. I don't look at it, move it, or even thing about it for 2 weeks......OK....I do look at the air lock for entertainment the first few days......

planetscott said:

Excellent advice. I taste way too much off flavored beer from beginners who rush the process. Give it time, it will be worth it. I do a minimum of 2 weeks in the primary. I don't look at it, move it, or even thing about it for 2 weeks......OK....I do look at the air lock for entertainment the first few days......

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I suspect the off flavors from beginners has more to do with poor technique. With poor technique, it will take more time for off flavors produced during fermentation to dissipate. However, aerate properly, pitch the right amount of yeast, control the temperature, and there is very little clean up for the yeast to do after active fermentation is over. A well brewed beer can be fully matured, properly carbonated, and ready to drink within 3 weeks.

pjj2ba said:

You do not need to leave the beer on the yeast cake for it to clean up after itself. The yeast in the cake have dropped out because they are not very metabolically active. The yeast that are in suspension are the ones doing the work. So if one's reason to leave the beer on the yeast cake is for better clean up, that is an incorrect reason. There are other reasons why one might want to leave the beer on the yeast, but better clean up is not one of them. Then again there is nothing wrong with using a secondary if you want to

Since the OP is kegging, it would be perfectly fine to let if ferment for 7-10 days, and then transfer it to the keg and let it mature further there. The only time I use a true secondary prior to kegging is for dry hopping, however most of my Ales are in the keg within two weeks of brew date

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Since I will be transfering to a keg after two weeks should I keep it my keg fridge cold? Carbonate it? Or Keep it in the house?

pjj2ba said:

You do not need to leave the beer on the yeast cake for it to clean up after itself. The yeast in the cake have dropped out because they are not very metabolically active. The yeast that are in suspension are the ones doing the work. So if one's reason to leave the beer on the yeast cake is for better clean up, that is an incorrect reason. There are other reasons why one might want to leave the beer on the yeast, but better clean up is not one of them. Then again there is nothing wrong with using a secondary if you want to

Since the OP is kegging, it would be perfectly fine to let if ferment for 7-10 days, and then transfer it to the keg and let it mature further there. The only time I use a true secondary prior to kegging is for dry hopping, however most of my Ales are in the keg within two weeks of brew date

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Ahh, someone who finally just answered the question instead of trying to push their beliefs of secondary vs no secondary. If you prefer to do a secondary, then do it. I mean, it is your beer! Will you risk contamination? It's possible but if you practice good sanitation, you should be fine. The reason I brew is because it is fun and that is the bottom line. I have used a secondary on every batch I have ever made. (I use a secondary for clarifying and for adding additions to) I also used a tertiary for a Highly hopped high ABV beer and they all turned out great.

So yes, if you would like to use a secondary, you should be fine transfering after about 7 days in primary. (I usually do 1 week in primary and 2 to 3 weeks in secondary. then I transfer to keg and either force carb or keg condition based off of style) If you want to keep it in the primary, that will also work. you just have to have good racking tecnique

ilv4xn said:

Since I will be transfering to a keg after two weeks should I keep it my keg fridge cold? Carbonate it? Or Keep it in the house?

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For ales, I like to transfer the beer to a keg, hit it with a little gas to set the seal, and then let it further age at fermentation temperature for another week to two weeks (often depending on space). Then I move it to the keg fridge and do the set it and forget it carbonation method (set to serving pressure and wait one week). CO2 dissolves better in cold liquids