Beer went from 'great' in ferm, to 'crappy' in keg

I brewed NB's Extra Pale Ale kit about 4 1/2 weeks ago. Left it in primary for 3 weeks, cold crashed for 2 days and kegged it. I used my autosiphon that I had run a couple gallons of Star San through (and it was only the 2nd time I've used it). Tasted a bit from the primary. Tasted great!, just flat. Set the regulator to 30psi for 24 hours. Dropped to 12psi, waited about 24 hours, and poured one. wasn't over-carbed, but didn't taste anything like it did before kegging. It has a bitter off flavor. It's drinkable, but not good. What could have happened in 2 days?

As far as the keg, it was from Cornykeg.com. It had been setting for 7 or 8 weeks under pressure, with a little of what ever they cleaned the keg with, still in it. I noticed some dark stuff in the bottom of the keg. I assume it was soda residue that had settled out of the cleaning solution, and redeposited itself. I dumped the remaining liquid, and wiped out the residue with a paper towel.

Next, I put some properly diluted BLC in the keg, and shook it around really well, pressurized the keg, and pushed it out the tap. Then I added about a gallon of water, rinsed it out good, and pushed through the tap. I then added a couple gallons of Star San, and sanitized the keg, once again pressurizing with CO2, and running it through the tap. It seems like that would have been sufficient to clean it, so I'm not sure what happened.

It seems like if it tasted great flat in the primary, just carbing it would completely ruin the flavor...suggestions, anyone?

Thanks,
Pat

It looks like you did everything right. Co2 increases the perception of bitterness on the palate. You just need to let it age and come together under pressure for a couple weeks. It's what most people refer to as green beer still at this point.

Double D, That's what I'm hoping. Since it's been a week, and the flavor hasn't changed, I'm just getting worried it won't get better. If this is typical, how do people quick carb and drink their beer within hours of kegging it?

Depends on the style and recipe. My guess is you're just experiencing the "extract twang" that so many people talk about. It's also quite amazing what a person is willing to accept if they're in a hurry.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily typical, but not uncommon. Now that I've talked circles around it with out answering the question, is it possible you didn't rinse out the starsan? I only ask because I've seen some pretty crazy threads.

mccullpl said:

If this is typical, how do people quick carb and drink their beer within hours of kegging it?

Click to expand...

Within hours? I don't think that's even possible without a stone....even then, I'm not sure it's possible. Hell, I don't think you can even chill a full keg of beer within a couple hours (could be wrong).

I usually see the 2 week set it and forget it crowd or the several day burst, bleed, then serving pressure crowd.

Nope, didn't rinse the Star San, but I thought that was the point of the 'no-rinse' sanitizer? Not disagreeing with you, as I've seen a lot of threads too...
Unfortunately, the taste reminds me of my first 2 failed batches about 13 years ago...which is why I haven't brewed for 13 years, lol.

I wish I could describe the taste better. It doesn't really fit any of the 'off-flavors' that are usually discussed, and I don't think it's 'extract twang'. Oh well, might just pull it out of the kegerator, and let it sit for a while.

mccullpl said:

Double D, That's what I'm hoping. Since it's been a week, and the flavor hasn't changed, I'm just getting worried it won't get better. If this is typical, how do people quick carb and drink their beer within hours of kegging it?

Click to expand...

If you chill the beer, then carbonate at serving pressure by shaking, the change in flavor is less noticeable. This requires a very clear beer when you rack it.

Double_D said:

...is it possible you didn't rinse out the starsan? I only ask because I've seen some pretty crazy threads.

Click to expand...

It's not necessary to rinse Starsan, hence, this...

BrewThruYou, I see lots of threads about people quick force-carbing their beers (mostly cranking up the psi and shaking the crap out of it for several minutes), and proclaiming it to be awesome. My thoughts were, if I kicked it up to a higher psi for 24 hrs (no rolling or shaking), it wouldn't over-carbonate, and might be ready to drink in 4 or 5 days.

I guess the question I'm really looking for an answer to is, did my beer get infected in 2 days by something in the keg?

mccullpl said:

I guess the question I'm really looking for an answer to is, did my beer get infected in 2 days by something in the keg?

Click to expand...

There's always the possibility that it's infected, but I seriously doubt it since it's only been in the keg for 2 days. I'm guessing it's carbonic acid bite and should go away in the next few days.

I found this on another forum: "When you force carb quickly, you create a bunch of carbonic acid right away. This will eventually neutralize and dissipate as the beer ages. With natural carbing and bottle conditioning, the carbonic acid is slowly neutralized as it is produced."

PS: I think the people that say that the beer is amazing after a quick force carb without a stone are full of it.

mccullpl said:

I wish I could describe the taste better. It doesn't really fit any of the 'off-flavors' that are usually discussed, and I don't think it's 'extract twang'. Oh well, might just pull it out of the kegerator, and let it sit for a while.

Click to expand...

I have had the very same problem. Let me help you with the description: Think of sucking on a teabag, or chewing on grape skins. This is not bitterness like a IPA or APA hoppy bitterness measured in IBU's. Its mouth-puckering sensation felt on the sides of the tongue. Giving you a almost dry mouth sensation. Hop bitterness is felt mostly on the back of the tongue.

I had the LHBS taste my beer and was told it could be:
1)over crushing your grain, 2)over sparging 3)sparging with boiling-hot or highly alkaline water, 4)bacterial infection, 5)Oxidation.

Because (like you) the beer tasted good up an until kegging. It could only be oxidation or a bacterial infection. I now rack via an auto-siphon to a Co2 purged keg. The tube from the auto-siphon sits so it doesnt splash. All kegs received sanitary enemas: warm oxy clean, warm PBW, Warm rinse, Star San, new gaskets, got a new dip tube brush, and replaced all liquid side hoses. The beer is good again.

JerseyJoe,

Yea, that just leaves bacterial infection (I'm still hoping carbonic acid, but not too confident). There was no splashing, and I purged the keg of air after I sealed it, so I think I can rule out oxidation.

I think your description is pretty accurate.

Glad to help. It took me way to long to narrow it down. 4 batches x 5 gallons. I never thought I could get an infection in my brewery as I am fastidious about cleaning and sanitation. I now brush out the dip tubes on my kegs. I thought PBW and Starsan would clean them up. http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_56_150&products_id=915

JerseyJoe, other than brushing the dip tubes, did you do anything special to get rid of the infection? ...out just pbw and star san?

All kegs got new gaskets, replaced all liquid side hoses, even new Poppits. Then warm bath in oxy clean, warm PBW, Warm water rinse, then Star San. Dont forget to replace the auto siphon. Maybe you don't need to go that far. 4 batches of tea bag beer was enough for me. Once bitten twice shy..

We force carbonate at 30 psi for a couple days, then knock it down to whatever we plan to serve it at after that. While sneaking samples while carbing, as well a day or two after, the beer always has a weird flavor that I can't describe. Goes away once the beer is fully carbed at serving pressure a day or two later. I've always figured it was the co2.

No clue though.

It just takes time. Sometimes I'm not all the way happy with a keg until it's been in the fridge for 3 or 4 weeks. Even once it's fully carbed, it tastes better the longer it cold conditions. And FYI, it always tastes great out of the fermenter. Warm and flat isn't bad at all. Cold and flat on the other hand tastes like crap. And I seriously doubt that infection casused the off flavor. Even if you infected intentionally, a couple days wouldn't be near enough time to develop off flavors, especially in the fridge. Bugs just can't grow that fast at cold temperatures.

BBL_Brewer, I like your answer the best, lol! I think I'll let it set another few weeks and see what happens...

BBL_Brewer said:

It just takes time. Sometimes I'm not all the way happy with a keg until it's been in the fridge for 3 or 4 weeks. Even once it's fully carbed, it tastes better the longer it cold conditions. And FYI, it always tastes great out of the fermenter. Warm and flat isn't bad at all. Cold and flat on the other hand tastes like crap. And I seriously doubt that infection casused the off flavor. Even if you infected intentionally, a couple days wouldn't be near enough time to develop off flavors, especially in the fridge. Bugs just can't grow that fast at cold temperatures.

Click to expand...

I would agree with BBL, you should give yeast and aging a chance to clean up the issue. I did give my beers a lot of time (months even) to come around, but alas they didnt. Wanted to give you my two cents Good luck

One other thing. You mentioned that the keg had syrup residue in it. Did you replace the o-rings? The rubber o-rings will retain that soda smell even after you clean it up good. This can contribute off flavors as well.

BBL_Brewer said:

It just takes time. Sometimes I'm not all the way happy with a keg until it's been in the fridge for 3 or 4 weeks. Even once it's fully carbed, it tastes better the longer it cold conditions. And FYI, it always tastes great out of the fermenter. Warm and flat isn't bad at all. Cold and flat on the other hand tastes like crap. And I seriously doubt that infection casused the off flavor. Even if you infected intentionally, a couple days wouldn't be near enough time to develop off flavors, especially in the fridge. Bugs just can't grow that fast at cold temperatures.

Click to expand...

i find this to be mostly true.

BBL_Brewer said:

One other thing. You mentioned that the keg had syrup residue in it. Did you replace the o-rings? The rubber o-rings will retain that soda smell even after you clean it up good. This can contribute off flavors as well.

Click to expand...

From Cornykeg.com: "All Converted CornyKeg ball lock kegs have been washed, rinsed, pressure checked, all o-rings have been replaced and the pin lock fittings are replaced with the new CornyKeg ball lock fitting."

I assumed the residue was soda that had come out of suspension, as I had gotten the keg about 2 months before I used it, and never opened it up....although I would have thought the wash and rinse they did would take care of any residue whatsoever.

beergynt said:

It's not necessary to rinse Starsan, hence, this...

Click to expand...

I wasn't questioning the fact that you don't have to rinse it. My point was I saw a thread where a guy had at least a gallon of star san in his beer because he forgot to dump it out and still wanted to drink it. I just said it wrong.

Double_D said:

I wasn't questioning the fact that you don't have to rinse it. My point was I saw a thread where a guy had at least a gallon of star san in his beer because he forgot to dump it out and still wanted to drink it. I just said it wrong.

Click to expand...

Oh, now that would be a problem!