Hefeweizen lovers - how do you step mash if using a cooler??

My favorite beer is hefeweizen, though I love many others of course. I just started AG and did a pumpkin for my first and was looking to do a hefeweizen for my second but see it's most common to do a multi-rest mash at different temps. I just got a Rubbermaid 10g cooler for as my mash ton and am wondering if it's possible to do the multi-step mash in it.

I have a Blichmann 10g kettle and am thinking it would make more sense to mash in there for weizen's as I can raise the heat easily and since it's only a 10-30 minute rest I shouldn't lose much temp with the lid on. However, then there's the sparging issue as it's my main kettle. Well... that and the fact I'd have to get a false bottom for it.

So, is there any way to multi-step mash in a cooler? I would think adding water increments would mess with the water per pound ratio, but what do I know. Any advice would be appreciated!


Rev.

U can use the pot as a mash tun, just be sure to stir frequently as to not scorch the grain on the bottom, then dump it all in the 10g cooler and use it as the lauter tun and sparge from there, the above process is very common and is how its done in breweries, but when I make German brews I always do decoction mashes, I think it helps give them a better body/mouthfeel and slightly better eff and better flavor than infusion

I use a heat stick for my step mashes.

Why do u need to do a multi-step mash for a hefe? Just use regularly modified malt and do a single step. Works well for me.

You could look at doing decoction mashing, I beleive that's a fairly common approach used for multi-step mashing. Basically you take out a portion of the mash and boil it then add it back into the mash to raise the temp to your next step. Here's a calculator that Google pointed me at for determining volumes to pull out to get to your next temp step:

http://www.quaff.org/cyberbrau/DecoctionCalculator.htm

I know that it's generally frowned upon to boil the grain, I haven't looked into decoction enough to figure out why this is OK.

barrooze said:

Why do u need to do a multi-step mash for a hefe? Just use regularly modified malt and do a single step. Works well for me.

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You really don't. The protein rest is for under modified malts. If you do it with the malts homebrewers normally get you will probably just lose body. The decoction can be mimicked with specialty malts. I can't yet tell the difference. I normally go with you basic single infusion for this beer personally.

Awesome, than I will try it single infusion. One question, and it might be a stupid one, but Weyermann's malts are also highly modified yes? I wanted to use actual german malts for it. Then, I would later try Rahr and others.


Rev.

Yeah. When I did mine I added 4 ounce melanoiden malt.

Instead of decoction could you just remove the liquid and heat it up? Then just pour it back on top of the grain bed? I was listening to Jamil's show on cream ale and he mentioned step mashing and I thought, great, now I gotta figure out how the heck to do that!

Rev2010 said:

Awesome, than I will try it single infusion. One question, and it might be a stupid one, but Weyermann's malts are also highly modified yes? I wanted to use actual german malts for it. Then, I would later try Rahr and others.


Rev.

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Weyermann malts are great and highly modified for brewing. Typically you just need a single infusion for the vast majority of your brews. If at some point you did want to experiment with step mashing, you have to look for "undermodified" malts.

To answer you original question, it is possible to do step infusions with a cooler MLT. Just go and get the trial version of Beersmith. It will calc out the water temps and volumes you need to achieve your desired steps. Great software.

Thanks man, and already ahead of ya... I've owned Beersmith for months now And I have Brewzor for my Droid2 and it's also awesome. The calcs in it are a life saver!

Thanks again everyone for this info, it's a real relief cause I was so hoping to do a hefe as my next AG brew and was getting worried I might have to wait if it's more complex. I'll give it a go with single infusion. You guys rock!


Rev.

Regardless of how well modified the malts are, a step mash may still be beneficial for hefeweizen brewing, especially if you want to encourage phenolic flavors. When I brew with Bavarian yeast I do step infusion mashes (because who has time for decocting)?

Soma said:

Regardless of how well modified the malts are, a step mash may still be beneficial for hefeweizen brewing, especially if you want to encourage phenolic flavors. When I brew with Bavarian yeast I do step infusion mashes (because who has time for decocting)?

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Possible. Not enough experience to know. I did step infusion for my last Dunkelweizen and I screwed up a bit. It still came out good but it was a pain. I wish I would have just gone with the usual single. If it makes a difference it's probably pretty slight. An improvement I'd like to make when I have made the best wheat I can with the single.

Soma said:

Regardless of how well modified the malts are, a step mash may still be beneficial for hefeweizen brewing, especially if you want to encourage phenolic flavors.

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At some point I'm sure I will try a step mash, just to see how it compares and such - learning new things is something I am always anxious for. But for now I have all my other top favorite beers in the pipeline so the only thing missing is a hefe, so I just want to brew up a good AG hefe. I'll start it off with single infusion and in the future take the same recipe and do a multi-rest mash so I can see the differences it makes.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

At some point I'm sure I will try a step mash, just to see how it compares and such - learning new things is something I am always anxious for. But for now I have all my other top favorite beers in the pipeline so the only thing missing is a hefe, so I just want to brew up a good AG hefe. I'll start it off with single infusion and in the future take the same recipe and do a multi-rest mash so I can see the differences it makes.

Rev.

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Yeah I think that's a good plan. Hell I'd like to do a decoction but I am a bit intimidated. You can't do it 100% German style on the homebrew level. Open fermenters and krausening. You would kill yourself. Maybe someday tho who knows heh.

You can step mash by infusion or decoction.

txinga said:

Instead of decoction could you just remove the liquid and heat it up? Then just pour it back on top of the grain bed? I was listening to Jamil's show on cream ale and he mentioned step mashing and I thought, great, now I gotta figure out how the heck to do that!

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I'm pretty sure the enzymes that you're so carefully trying to craft during a mash are present in the liquid and not the thick (grain) part. Boiling the liquid would stop any enzymatic processes and kill your mash.

Step mashes/decoctions can be beneficial for Hefeweizens.

For one, you can dough-in at 104-110F for an acid rest to enhance ferrulic acid production, which can enhance the presence of the clove-like phenol with the Bavarian Hefe strains.

Some say they can taste the difference between the decoction and the increased melanoidins it will bring to the finished product, but to others, it may not be noticeable - so it's ultimately up to the drinker.

With that in mind,at a tasting panel/Hefe discussion at this year's NHC, it was shown that the best Hefe was made with a single decoction and fermented cool at 62 degrees.

PseudoChef said:

Step mashes/decoctions can be beneficial for Hefeweizens.

For one, you can dough-in at 104-110F for an acid rest to enhance ferrulic acid production, which can enhance the presence of the clove-like phenol with the Bavarian Hefe strains.

Some say they can taste the difference between the decoction and the increased melanoidins it will bring to the finished product, but to others, it may not be noticeable - so it's ultimately up to the drinker.

With that in mind,at a tasting panel/Hefe discussion at this year's NHC, it was shown that the best Hefe was made with a single decoction and fermented cool at 62 degrees.

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I did the rest on my last beer and there still isn't enough clove for me. Not sure what I have to do.

Acid rest? I thought you did a protein rest. But with a Dunkleweizen, those subtleties might be lost. Not really sure, though.

I started doing a decoction mash for my hefes, mostly because I find the process fascinating.

Here is a good video on the process by our own Kaiser:

Beezy said:

I did the rest on my last beer and there still isn't enough clove for me. Not sure what I have to do.

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Try fermenting at a lower temp. 62F worked for me to bring out the clover.

PseudoChef said:

Acid rest? I thought you did a protein rest. But with a Dunkleweizen, those subtleties might be lost. Not really sure, though.

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Right. Acid is a little lower eh? Maybe I'll try that next go. How long do you hold it?

barrooze said:

Try fermenting at a lower temp. 62F worked for me to bring out the clover.

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Not clover! I used white labs 380. Pretty sure the chart said the clove comes out above 70? I am open to ideas though. Consider putting some actual clove in there. Why not?

Beezy said:

Not clover! I used white labs 380. Pretty sure the chart said the clove comes out above 70? I am open to ideas though. Consider putting some actual clove in there. Why not?

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Dah... Fat fingers... Yes Clove. And in the hefe brews I've done, the ones with warmer temps have a much more pronounced banana flavor and the ones with cooler temps have more clove. Just my personal experience.

barrooze said:

in the hefe brews I've done, the ones with warmer temps have a much more pronounced banana flavor and the ones with cooler temps have more clove. Just my personal experience.

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He's right, most yeast descriptions note a more pronounced clove profile if fermented cooler and more banana when fermented warmer.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

He's right, most yeast descriptions note a more pronounced clove profile if fermented cooler and more banana when fermented warmer.

Rev.

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There are different strains though the 380 is supposed to be low on the Banana for the whole range and it is but the clove is not strong either. The 351 is supposed to be the strongest but it's seasonal. Plus I used 300 at 64 and still not much clove. It's not as black and white as cool = clove, warm = banana.

Beezy said:

It's not as black and white as cool = clove, warm = banana.

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Of course not, I wasn't suggesting it was that simple, just that the balance can be influenced by the fermentation temps.

If you really want more clove taste and are having a hard time getting it why not add a pinch of real cloves in the boil?


Rev.

If you like hefe's, pick up a copy of brewing with wheat by stan hieronomous (sp?)

Rev2010 said:

Of course not, I wasn't suggesting it was that simple, just that the balance can be influenced by the fermentation temps.

If you really want more clove taste and are having a hard time getting it why not add a pinch of real cloves in the boil?

Rev.

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That's what I'm thinking. Actually I have been drinking a lot of various German hefes, dunkels and weissenbocks and I guess the clove is pretty subtle. I think I am getting it somewhat in my own. I am thrown off by this one bock I had recently. I am starting to think they used real clove and why not?

Beezy said:

That's what I'm thinking. Actually I have been drinking a lot of various German hefes, dunkels and weissenbocks and I guess the clove is pretty subtle. I think I am getting it somewhat in my own. I am thrown off by this one bock I had recently. I am starting to think they used real clove and why not?

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If it was German, it probably didn't use real clove due so they can say that they abided by the Reinheitsgebot.

barrooze said:

If it was German, it probably didn't use real clove due so they can say that they abided by the Reinheitsgebot.

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Nope wasn't German that's why I am wondering. I really enjoyed it though.

Is there a difference between decotion and step infusion mashes? As I use a 10 gallon cooler as my MLT would I just conduct the mash in my boil kettle and then dump into the cooler? What about hot side aeration?

turnbomb77 said:

Is there a difference between decotion and step infusion mashes? As I use a 10 gallon cooler as my MLT would I just conduct the mash in my boil kettle and then dump into the cooler? What about hot side aeration?

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That's how I've always done it. I just use a large ladle to transfer the mash to my cooler/mlt. I gotta say though, I've not done step mashes for a while, I just couldn't justify the added headaches for what was ultimately no appreciable difference between them and single temps. I do occasionally decoct from my cooler /mlt for a mashout. I'm just careful with the transfer.

turnbomb77 said:

Is there a difference between decotion and step infusion mashes? As I use a 10 gallon cooler as my MLT would I just conduct the mash in my boil kettle and then dump into the cooler? What about hot side aeration?

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Yeah there is a big difference. At least as far as technique goes.

Check this vid out and the subsequent parts.

Rev2010-

I'm interested to see how it turned out, if you finally brewed your ag hefe. I just brewed my first ag hefe four days ago. I did a three step infusion mash in a cooler, which after reading enough articles now, probably wasn't necessary but I'm always in a hurry to brew and then when I'm awaiting the ferment I read and learn about all my errors! Anyway, I'm interested to hear how yours turned out/how you did it and I'll update in a month or so how mine faired.

I used the enhanced double decoction. Seemed to work really well but took a really long time. I also draw liquid out during rests and heat it up, but I don't boil it. I find that its hard to get my mash tun at an even temp just dumping in water and stirring. But if I need 155 deg, I draw out a gallon heat it to ~160 and then float it back on top. I do this about three times and it starts coming out of the tun at 155 deg. It takes about 5-10 minutes to do this.

I started using decoctions last year when I want to do a step mash. I found that too many step infusions resulted in very thin mashes and moved my mash to sparge water ratio quite far away from the suggested 50-50.

For hefes I typically use infusion for the acid rest and then move it to sacc rest with a second infusion. I decoct to get to mash out. If for some reason you miss way too low with the sacc rest, you can switch plans and do a Hockhust mash that Kai has documented to split the sacc into separate beta-alpha steps using a decoction.

I have read a lot of experiments by some very well respected home brewers that have indicated that there isn't a discernible flavor advantage from the decoction. I think that for multi-step mashes in a cooler it helps maintain the grist/water ratio.

Best,

Paul

I can definitely tell the difference when I do decoction mashes. I do believe you can obtain most of the same results with specialty malt additions. I like using the process to control the flavor so that's the process I do.

If you are going to do either step-infusion mashes or decoction mashes (for wheat beers) you want to hit a step around 113F to develop the precursors to phenolics to develop the clove flavors (I don't know of a way to do that with specialty malts). If you decide to do a protein rest around 122F and you are using fully modified malts it should be an abbreviated rest period because breaking down too much protein will result in a dryer and thinner beer, which is generally undesirable in hefeweizen. Then you need to pick a rest in the upper 140s and one in the upper 150s. I only rest around 148F for about 20-30 minutes and then add the last decoction to raise to 158F for another 30 minutes.

Ferment in the mid-60s to get a good mix of banana and clove.

Some really great info contained in this thread.
I wasnt able to do a low temp (113°) dough in or a final mash out because I was concerned about my coolers capacity and my grist/water ratio, so doing a decoction for mash out is a brilliant idea,IMHO. Im also worried about my protien rest too, since i think i went around 20 min. so next time i'll have to remember to go shorter (for wheat beers).
Im going to host a brew day next week for some newcomers (the blind leading the blind) so I will definitely utilize some of the techniques you all have suggested.

Thanks
-Randy