Questions about Tannins

I've been evaluating my last few brews ever since going All-Grain. I've always had a tartness to my beers and after some recent research I think it might be astringency.

From what I read astringency comes from tannin extraction (and high pH) during the brewing process.

I haven't measured pH but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have extracted tannins through oversparging or sparging at too high a temperature. I looked back at my notes and I was well within the temps and volumes for both.

However I know that my local water has a high level of tannins out of the tap. There are tannins as a result of all the cedar and sphagnum moss and bogs around our water source. I mean our water tastes fine but it is definitely yellowy-brown.

So I was wondering if anyone thinks that this pre-existing level of tannins in my brew water might lead to the astringency taste in my beer. If so, is there any kind of adjustment I can make other than going right to bottled water?

Thanks!

Not sure about the science end of the tannins in water?...But dude if your water is yellowy brown do you really want to brew with it???????

We drink from the tap all the time and it tastes fine. Everything I have read about using tap water comes down to: if you drink it and it tastes good then it will be fine for brewing.

I can't taste the tannins in the water ( and don't know what they would taste like either).

TacoGuthrie said:

However I know that my local water has a high level of tannins

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That is dirt or iron, get a better filter.

northernlad said:

That is dirt or iron, get a better filter.

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My conversations with city water quality guy tells me it's tannins.

If you are on city water and it has a color, you need a new city water guy.

I'll be sure to tell him that poster northernlad on the www.homebrewtalk.com forums thinks that.

In the meantime I wonder is anyone else has any experience with existing tannins in drinking water?

Your water won't have tannins unless it is well water. If the water is coming from the city and it's that colour, I wouldn't be drinking it... Your post indicates that there are plants near your source, and decomposing plant material can definitely impart tannins into water. I would switch to using bottled water.

Thanks gremlyn. I will probably try bottled watr next time.

I'm still going to drink my water as I don't think there is a health issue with tannins.

Tannins are large molecular weight organic compounds. They are formed through the decomposition of plants and, to a much lesser degree, animals. These organics are generally found in surface waters or shallow wells. . The structure of the tannin varies from location to location, depending on the vegetation in the area. Tannins can cause a yellow to dark tea color in water and may impart taste and odor. Tannins are not directly regulated by a governmental agency, however there is a secondary drinking water standard of 15 alpha units for color. A secondary drinking water standard is not federally enforced. Tannins are not a health issue; however, they are aesthetically displeasing.

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get a filter - costs like 40 bucks ... carbon filter
my city water tasts fine too , and its clear but i still filter the water i drink and brew with ... why not?

I would consider buying a filter, rather than using bottled water. It may be more of an upfront cost, but, in the long run it will save you a lot of time and money.

I'm doing my best to not take my local water supply for granted. I've had huge success with IPAs and even stouts here with my water supply in Seattle. One more thing to be thankful for...

Interesting...

If you can't taste the tannins in your water it is highly unlikely the water is causing them in your beer.
Do you sparge beyond 1.010?
Are you raising your grain bed temp too high with your sparge water?

I do own a Brita filter. Just the jug type and not one that fits over the tap. From what I've read about those filters they only partially "reduces the concentration of calcium and magnesium with cation ion exchange resins, but theses substances are not completely removed.


My water is already very very soft. So i don't need to remove any hardness. Check out these numbers:

Ca: 2.57
Mg: .28
Na: .87
Cl: 3.5
So4: .6
CaCO3: 6

Removing tannins seems like a bigger process but one that Reverse Osmosis does a good job of. I figure I will try some purified water that uses this process and look for a change.

northernlad said:

Interesting...

If you can't taste the tannins in your water it is highly unlikely the water is causing them in your beer.
Do you sparge beyond 1.010?
Are you raising your grain bed temp too high with your sparge water?

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I'm looking back on some notes and I would say I definitely do not sparge past 1.010. It is something I tracked when I was doing partial mashes because I tried to squeeze so much out of whatever grain i could fit in my 3G cooler. I would always check my gravity on the last sparge.

Now, with my AG set up I do one sparge ~3-4Gallons and definitley don't come close to 1.010.

I don't have notes on grain bed temp so I will definitely watch for that when I do my next brew. I usually sparge between 170-180 and that might be a bit high.

What is the cutoff temp for tannin extraction on sparging?

I have read problems can develop over 180. The masters can chime in now.

TacoGuthrie said:

I do own a Brita filter. Just the jug type and not one that fits over the tap. From what I've read about those filters they only partially "reduces the concentration of calcium and magnesium with cation ion exchange resins, but theses substances are not completely removed.


My water is already very very soft. So i don't need to remove any hardness. Check out these numbers:

Ca: 2.57
Mg: .28
Na: .87
Cl: 3.5
So4: .6
CaCO3: 6

Removing tannins seems like a bigger process but one that Reverse Osmosis does a good job of. I figure I will try some purified water that uses this process and look for a change.

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I'm not an expert on water, by any means, but depending on what you're brewing, it seems to me that your pH during the sparge might be too high with those water numbers. This would certainly be a risk factor for tannin extraction, especially for low SRM beers.

I dont think tannins are in your tap water. they are coming from your grain when your mashing/sparging at a high PH. I had this problem with my pilsners and have been researching water additions.

Tannins from the husk is a pH (and temp) thing. I made an experimental beer last year where I took the no-sparge brewing one step further. I did my mash as normal, then added extra water to the mash, and after carefully checking my pH, boiled EVERYTHING. Sort of a full decoction. There were no tannins in the finished beer.

You could just try using 5.2 stabilizer to try to keep your mash PH down and see if that helps. It is cheaper then buying a water filter or using bottled water.

thedude123 said:

You could just try using 5.2 stabilizer to try to keep your mash PH down and see if that helps. It is cheaper then buying a water filter or using bottled water.

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Not going to help if the tannins are already in the water. From what the PO has described, it's is very likely the tannins he is getting are from the water itself, and not from his brewing practices.

Gremlyn1 said:

Not going to help if the tannins are already in the water. From what the PO has described, it's is very likely the tannins he is getting are from the water itself, and not from his brewing practices.

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why doesn't his water taste astringent then, if the water is imparting this?

the OP indicated that he's been noting this since going AG?? or did i misinterpret first post? if extract beers did not have this and the AG beers do, i think this would rule out tannins in the water source (unless of course, the water changed since going AG)

I did notice it my partial mashes and perhaps my extract but I only did 2 extract batches and was so happy they tasted like beer I didn't analyze the taste.

I am brewing this week and am borrowing a biologist friends ph reader that he uses for stream analysis. I will also keep close tabs on my temps. With a controlled brew I can come back to the question of impacts of tannins in my brew water.

I'm also gonna talk to the city again and find out if they can give me a better explanation of tannin levels and treatment.