Batch Sparging and mashing

I'm setting up to do my first all grain brew probably sometime next week. I've been an extract brewer for about 4 years on and off.

I made a mash tun out of a Coldman 48 QT cooler. I bought a 42 QT kettle and a wort chiller. Among other things I purchased were a mash paddle and a 6 gallon Better Bottle with a drilled bung.

I think I understand the mash and sparging steps, but I want to make sure.

First (using beersmith) I calculate my strike water temp. Then I pour the strike water into the mash tun. Then add the crushed grains and stir until there are no clumps. Take the temp (should be around 153 for my recipe) let it mash for 60 minutes.

After the 60 minutes are up, I drain it into the brew kettle (recirculating first until it is clear). Once it has been all drained out I add more hot water (between 170-180 degrees) the amount should be calculated by Beersmith. Then I stir the water and grains good. Let it sit for about 10 minutes, then drain into the kettle (recirculating the first few pints).

By this point I should have about 6.5 gallons in the kettle.

Does this sound right?


I'm doing Northern Brewer's American Amber Ale.

rockstar55667 said:

I'm setting up to do my first all grain brew probably sometime next week. I've been an extract brewer for about 4 years on and off.

I made a mash tun out of a Coldman 48 QT cooler. I bought a 42 QT kettle and a wort chiller. Among other things I purchased were a mash paddle and a 6 gallon Better Bottle with a drilled bung.

I think I understand the mash and sparging steps, but I want to make sure.

First (using beersmith) I calculate my strike water temp. Then I pour the strike water into the mash tun. Then add the crushed grains and stir until there are no clumps. Take the temp (should be around 153 for my recipe) let it mash for 60 minutes.

After the 60 minutes are up, I drain it into the brew kettle (recirculating first until it is clear). Once it has been all drained out I add more hot water (between 170-180 degrees) the amount should be calculated by Beersmith. Then I stir the water and grains good. Let it sit for about 10 minutes, then drain into the kettle (recirculating the first few pints).

By this point I should have about 6.5 gallons in the kettle.

Does this sound right?


I'm doing Northern Brewer's American Amber Ale.

Click to expand...

Yes, that sounds about right.

Beersmith may or may not help you get your temps/volumes right. It's hard at first, because you have to set up your equipment profile correctly in order to have it exactly right.

But once you have your recipe in Beersmith set, if you want to post it up here, we can look at it and see if you've got any glaring errors with volumes/temperatures. You can go into Beersmith and "export as a text file" and then copy and paste it here and we can take a look.

Great thanks!!!

I also read that I should adjust my efficiency to about 72% on Beersmith because I am batch sparging, and its my first brew.

I have a very similar setup and batch sparge. I average between 70-75% efficiency so I think you are safe to assume 72% for now. It will take a few brews to get everything dialed in. Best of luck and enjoy it!

I am still a newbie but two batches ago I was right where you are. One thing that helped me a bit is to measure the total volume of wort you get when you drain the mashtun the first time.
I got a tip to have a stick for your brew pot with marks on it so you know exactly how much wort you get from your first running from the mashtun. You can heat more than you think you need for your batch sparge, but only add in the total gallons you will need to hit your pre-boil volumes.
For example, you heat your initial strike water to around 165*, you add to grain and hit your target 153*. You wait 60 minutes and drain the mash tun and get a total of 3 gallons of initial wort. If you want to have a pre-boil volume of 6.5 gallons, you will add 3.5 gallons to your mashtun for your sparge and you will drain 3.5 gallons out for a total of 6.5 gallons.
This will happen because the grain will not soak up any of the sparge water because it already soaked up all the water it wants to from the initial mash for 60 minutes.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Kevin

Thank you everyone for all the advice!!

Beersmith is telling me that I should have 7.37 gallons of est pre boil volume. That sounds high to me?

Its accounting for 1.13 gallons Boil off, cooling loss of .25 gallons, turb loss of 1 gallon in the boil and fermenting section (isnt that high?) and a cooling loss of 4%.

EDIT: I switched my equipment from 10 gallon cooler to 5 gallon cooler and its at 6.52 gallons now. BUT...I have a 12 gallon cooler, so thats inaccurate so I went in and adjusted the settings to 12 gallons. Does this sound right??

Here is the recipe:



Recipe: NB American Amber Ale TYPE: All Grain
Style: American Amber Ale
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 9.9 SRM SRM RANGE: 11.0-18.0 SRM
IBU: 29.6 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 20.0-40.0 IBUs
OG: 1.050 SG OG RANGE: 1.045-1.056 SG
FG: 1.011 SG FG RANGE: 1.010-1.015 SG
BU:GU: 0.598 Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 5.0 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 5.00 gal Boil: 6.52 gal BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------


Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz Total Hops: 2.50 oz oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 68.4 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 21.1 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 10.5 %


Name Description Step Temperatu Step Time
Mash In Add 11.88 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 60 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 72.0 F/72.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Batch sparge with 3 steps (0.79gal, 2.62gal, 1.53gal) of 168.0 F water

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.044 SG Est OG: 1.050 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 28.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 5 0.8 IBUs

---FERM PROCESS-----------------------------
Primary Start: 9/5/2012 - 4.00 Days at 67.0 F
Secondary Start: 9/9/2012 - 10.00 Days at 67.0 F
Style Carb Range: 2.30-2.80 Vols
Bottling Date: 9/19/2012 with 2.3 Volumes CO2:
---NOTES------------------------------------


One last thing to note, although it may be small, is that your cooler is going to absorb some of the heat you put in for your strike water. I have a similar set-up and have found that the cooler is good for about 4*F. So, if I am shooting for 165* strike water, I will need 169* water into the cooler. Also, I use a blanket to insulate the cooler to help keep the correct temperature. Best of luck!

One thing stood out to me and that was when you wrote "stir until there are no lumps". IMO, that is WAY underestimating the stirring you should do to mash in. You want to stir, and stir some more, and then stir some more. When you think your are done, stir it some more. It's not just getting all of the grain wet. You want to keep it moving around until the temps are uniform throughout the tun. That can easily take 5+ minutes.

Re volumes: All of the "calculated" volumes are just estimates. You really won't know until you get a few brews under your belt and start to dial in your system. Take detailed notes about volumes, gravity etc at every step. The more data you can collected and plug into the calculators, the better the estimates will be for future batches.

As far as temps go, i always shoot on the high side and if i need to bring them down i just add a few cubes of ice to the mash to get the exact temp. Its much easier than trying to add boiling water if you undershoot. Dont ask me how i know this..........

Thank you guys very much! A lot of good advice in this thread!

Another question:

What happens if when the boil is over and I have more or less than the desirable 5 gallons?

Cheers

If you batch sparge, when you add the sparge water, you don't need to wait 10 minutes. Just add the water, stir VERY well and you can run it off after a good vorlauf. If you have less wort, it will be more concentrated, you could add water to get to your volume which will correct your OG. If you have too much wort, you could always boil longer to get your volume, but would mess up hop utilization. It will take you a few batches to learn your equipment. Don't go into this first AG batch thinking it will go perfect, just take good notes and your 2nd and 3rd brew session will be even easier.

justin

rockstar55667 said:

Thank you guys very much! A lot of good advice in this thread!

Another question:

What happens if when the boil is over and I have more or less than the desirable 5 gallons?

Cheers

Click to expand...

7+ gallons preboil it is unlikely you will be under 5. From my experiences in AG (~1.5yrs so not long at all) but being a bit over is not a horrible issue. Just boil a little bit longer . You will be watching the boil for almost its entirety. If you notice it boiling like crazy and the volume is getting to low to early, dial your boil back. It doesnt have to be a wild and crazy boil. Just a nice gentle rolling boil will suffice. Very unlikely you will loose to much volume this way.

Know your #'s. Know your expected gravity and compare that to your actual OG once it is all at RT.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

This is a nice free site to check your efficiency.

Once you get your OG and FG readings...

http://www.rooftopbrew.net/abv_calculator.php

Another free easy to use site to calculate ABV.

These #'s can and will tell you a lot about your process and let you know what you can start looking at to improve.

Ive been reading that batch sparging can yield a lower efficiency; and that a way to improve this is a double batch sparge.

In my case I would mash for 60 mins with 3 gallons, drain then add 1.59 gallons @168 degrees stir and wait 10 mins, drain and add 3.59 gallons, stir and wait 10 mins, then drain again.

Has anyone tried this method?

rockstar55667 said:

Thank you guys very much! A lot of good advice in this thread!

Another question:

What happens if when the boil is over and I have more or less than the desirable 5 gallons?

Cheers

Click to expand...

Don't worry about volume, you'll get that right as you dial in your system. Take a gravity reading. If your og is about what you estimated, leave it alone. If it's high, dilute. If it's low, you could try the dme route, but i wouldn't unless it's bad low. When i was dialing in my system, and every time i change something, i try and miss high at first and creep up on optimal, for that reason. If i miss just add water

rockstar55667 said:

Ive been reading that batch sparging can yield a lower efficiency; and that a way to improve this is a double batch sparge.

In my case I would mash for 60 mins with 3 gallons, drain then add 1.59 gallons @168 degrees stir and wait 10 mins, drain and add 3.59 gallons, stir and wait 10 mins, then drain again.

Has anyone tried this method?

Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense. With 1.59 gallons for the first round, you may not even cover the grains! At a temperature of 168, you'd be lucky to get above 156 in the grainbed.

Instead, since that's such a small volume, relatively, either add it together in one sparge, or split it evenly. Add the first round at 185 or so, to get the grainbed warmer.

Waiting for 10 minutes is a waste of time, x2.

Yooper said:

That doesn't make any sense. With 1.59 gallons for the first round, you may not even cover the grains! At a temperature of 168, you'd be lucky to get above 156 in the grainbed.

Instead, since that's such a small volume, relatively, either add it together in one sparge, or split it evenly. Add the first round at 185 or so, to get the grainbed warmer.

Waiting for 10 minutes is a waste of time, x2.

Click to expand...

Good to know! I'm glad I asked. I'll drain the mash into my bucket and use the kettle to heat up my sparge water. Then combine both in the kettle.

Beersmith says to use 168 degree water to sparge with. Should it be higher?

168 is what I shoot for. You don't want to sparge higher than 170f.

I'm shooting for 168, but if I add 168 degree water to a bed of 153 the temp would theoretically drop significantly. Wouldn't I need to pour in 185-190 degree water to achieve the 168 I am shooting for?

Since you are relying on your LHBS's crush expect low efficiency. You'll be lucky to get 65%(likely even lower depending on the crush) efficiency I would adjust your recipe accordingly.

I got my grains from NB, I plan on getting a mill eventually. I would hope they have a decent efficiency.

After some more research it sounds like adding sparging water at 185 will be sufficient to get the desired 168 degree sparge temp. (I mean theres always ice if its too hot).

Should I split the batch sparge to 2.5 gallons and 2.5 gallons to improve efficiency or will this be too little?

I'm probably over thinking this for my first batch but I want to make sure it comes out good

I batch sparge... and get about 67% efficiency. People tend to get caught up in the numbers. I have got the same throughout my all grain brewing. I would rather be consistent and adjust my recipe. Just my 2 cents.

One thing I noticed is depending on your recirculate time you will lose a couple degrees. I add almost 180 degree water to get the grain bed up to 168.

rockstar55667 said:

I'm shooting for 168, but if I add 168 degree water to a bed of 153 the temp would theoretically drop significantly. Wouldn't I need to pour in 185-190 degree water to achieve the 168 I am shooting for?

Click to expand...

Yep, that's it exactly!

How I figure the sparge water temp is sort of a work-around in Beersmith. If I'm batch sparging, I look at the "mash out" volume and temp. And I use that for my first sparge addition (it'll say something like "mashout with 9.5 quarts of water at 202 degrees). I stir well, and it almost always makes my grainbed 168. Then add the rest of the sparge water at 168-170 to keep the grainbed there. I hope that makes sense.

Since I have a larger MLT now, I just do one round of batch sparging. On Monday's brew, I got 75% efficiency- which is exactly the same I get when I fly sparge.

rockstar55667 said:

I got my grains from NB, I plan on getting a mill eventually. I would hope they have a decent efficiency.

After some more research it sounds like adding sparging water at 185 will be sufficient to get the desired 168 degree sparge temp. (I mean theres always ice if its too hot).

Should I split the batch sparge to 2.5 gallons and 2.5 gallons to improve efficiency or will this be too little?

I'm probably over thinking this for my first batch but I want to make sure it comes out good

Click to expand...

I always got about 68% efficiency with NB's crush. Their mill is "locked" at something like 0.040".

You can split your batch sparge if you want, especially if volume is an issue. I used to, when I had a smaller MLT.

Yoop... where do you see this line

(it'll say something like "mashout with 9.5 quarts of water at 202 degrees).

Mine always says add 168 degree water...

Firebat138 said:

Yoop... where do you see this line

(it'll say something like "mashout with 9.5 quarts of water at 202 degrees).

Mine always says add 168 degree water...

Click to expand...

Switch it over to a profile that uses a mash out, set up for fly sparging. Then it'll have the "mashout" step in there.

But of course, don't fly sparge, just batch sparge with the volume of mash out water + fly sparge water.

I hope that makes sense!

ah ha... got it... was trying to tell my buddy that we are pouring in water that is TOO LOW...

Thanks for your posts Yooper. I did an all grain last week that was a few points too low. Next time I will use the fly sparge profile, great tip on adding mash out and sparge together and making the first sparges water temp higher.

Actually I am a bit confused. Are you saying that you should add the mashout and sparge volumes together and split that into your two additions. So if mash out was 2.5 gallons, and fly sparge was something like 3.5 gallons you would combine those into two 3 gallon additions, the first being at the mash out temp (202), and the second being at 168 to maintain the grainbed temperature? Or do you do the first 2.5 gallons at 202, and then add 3.5 gallons at 168?

Also do you drain the water from the mashtun after mashing (the very first mix of water and grain) before adding the mashout or sparge water? Or do you add it on top before doing the initial runoff? By the end of the day (if you split your sparge into two steps), should you have done 2 runoffs, or 3?

sonex said:

168 is what I shoot for. You don't want to sparge higher than 170f.

Click to expand...

Not really. You can use boiling sparge water if you want to if your pH is in the right range.

MrMista said:

Actually I am a bit confused. Are you saying that you should add the mashout and sparge volumes together and split that into your two additions. So if mash out was 2.5 gallons, and fly sparge was something like 3.5 gallons you would combine those into two 3 gallon additions, the first being at the mash out temp (202), and the second being at 168 to maintain the grainbed temperature? Or do you do the first 2.5 gallons at 202, and then add 3.5 gallons at 168?

Also do you drain the water from the mashtun after mashing (the very first mix of water and grain) before adding the mashout or sparge water? Or do you add it on top before doing the initial runoff? By the end of the day (if you split your sparge into two steps), should you have done 2 runoffs, or 3?

Click to expand...

Man, you confused me by being confused.

You drain the water from the MLT. When you're batch sparging, you skip the mash out and add that amount of water to your sparging volume.

I only do one addition of batch sparging now, but when I had a smaller MLT I split it up evenly, with the first sparge addition hotter (the "mash out" temperature from Beersmith) and the second at 170 degrees. If you can fit it all into one addition, you can do that. A few people claim slightly better efficiency from doing two equal batch sparge rounds but I haven't found that to be true for me (and I know Denny will agree with me! )

When you drain the mash (first runnings), measure those runnings. If you have, say, 3 gallons, and you want your boil volume to be 6.5 gallons, you know you need 3.5 gallons for your sparge volume.

Oh, and speaking of Denny, check out his link in his signature. Denny wrote the book on batch sparging, and his site is very helpful. That was my main resource when I started batch sparging.

This seems to be getting WAAAYYYY too complicated. Here's what I do....mash with about a 1.5-1.75 qt./lb. ratio. At the end of the mash, drain into your kettle and measure how much wort you have. Subtract that from the boil volume you want. Heat that much water to 185-190F. Stir it well into the mash, vorlauf a bit and run it off into the kettle. That's all there is to it. Beersmith is a great tool, but it's NOT instructions about how to brew. Use it for what it is and don't let it boss you around! For more info on batch sparging, see www.dennybrew.com. I've done it for 426 batches and nearly 15 years. I wouldn't consider any other technique for sparging. I average 85% efficiency.

Denny said:

This seems to be getting WAAAYYYY too complicated. Here's what I do....mash with about a 1.5-1.75 qt./lb. ratio. At the end of the mash, drain into your kettle and measure how much wort you have. Subtract that from the boil volume you want. Heat that much water to 185-190F. Stir it well into the mash, vorlauf a bit and run it off into the kettle. That's all there is to it. Beersmith is a great tool, but it's NOT instructions about how to brew. Use it for what it is and don't let it boss you around! For more info on batch sparging, see www.dennybrew.com. I've done it for 426 batches and nearly 15 years. I wouldn't consider any other technique for sparging. I average 85% efficiency.

Click to expand...

Denny - does the 2nd running strike water temp 185-190F extract more sugars than say 170F? If so, any estimate how much more?

Thanks in advance.

TrubHead said:

Denny - does the 2nd running strike water temp 185-190F extract more sugars than say 170F? If so, any estimate how much more?

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Nope, it doesn't necessarily. I've done Kai's experiment with sparging with room temp water and found no effect on efficiency. But it does get you to a boil faster since the wort is hotter. It also _might_ increase your efficiency if you didn't get 100% conversion efficiency by solubulizing and converting the remaining starches in the mash.

wow a lot of great info everybody! Thanks I have certainly learned a lot. I just made my starter today. Brew day is coming up Sunday i'm hopeful on how it will turn out.

It will turn out fine. Just relax and enjoy it.

OK, first AG brew day is done. No major problems to report.

I finished with a OG of 1.045 (NB estimates 1.047), so not too bad I don't think.

I don't know how to check my efficiency, though I would be very curious.

There isn't much headspace in my 6 gallon Better Bottle, I'm hoping for no blow-off.

Cheers!!

Denny said:

This seems to be getting WAAAYYYY too complicated. Here's what I do....mash with about a 1.5-1.75 qt./lb. ratio. At the end of the mash, drain into your kettle and measure how much wort you have. Subtract that from the boil volume you want. Heat that much water to 185-190F. Stir it well into the mash, vorlauf a bit and run it off into the kettle. That's all there is to it. Beersmith is a great tool, but it's NOT instructions about how to brew. Use it for what it is and don't let it boss you around! For more info on batch sparging, see www.dennybrew.com. I've done it for 426 batches and nearly 15 years. I wouldn't consider any other technique for sparging. I average 85% efficiency.

Click to expand...

I followed these steps and got good efficiency. The only thing that concerns me is the sparging temperature is at 185-190 degrees instead of the 170 that I usually read about. Is that to improve efficiency? Would lowering that temperature drop efficiency? I have read that sparging that high can result in off flavors.

Temp is really a very small concern in sparging. pH is the real issue. If your pH is correct, you can even boil the grain. That's how and why decoction mashing works. I find that sparging with 190ish water ensures complete conversion and may be responsible for boosting my efficiency a bit.

MrMista said:

I followed these steps and got good efficiency. The only thing that concerns me is the sparging temperature is at 185-190 degrees instead of the 170 that I usually read about. Is that to improve efficiency? Would lowering that temperature drop efficiency? I have read that sparging that high can result in off flavors.

Click to expand...

The water is that warm to raise the temp of the mash tun/grain bed. No off flavors whatsoever.

bmock79 said:

The water is that warm to raise the temp of the mash tun/grain bed. No off flavors whatsoever.

Click to expand...

That makes sense to me. So would it be OK to do a single sparge with all the water at 185? Otherwise I guess you would do the first sparge at 185 to raise the grainbed and the second sparge at 170. I only do double sparges if I have a large grainbill and can't fit all the water into the first sparge.

Yooper said:

Yep, that's it exactly!

How I figure the sparge water temp is sort of a work-around in Beersmith. If I'm batch sparging, I look at the "mash out" volume and temp. And I use that for my first sparge addition (it'll say something like "mashout with 9.5 quarts of water at 202 degrees). I stir well, and it almost always makes my grainbed 168. Then add the rest of the sparge water at 168-170 to keep the grainbed there. I hope that makes sense.

Since I have a larger MLT now, I just do one round of batch sparging. On Monday's brew, I got 75% efficiency- which is exactly the same I get when I fly sparge.

Click to expand...

I wish I'd thought of this before I spent all those batches trying to dial in my system. lol, brilliant. Thanks Yoop.