Failure of Brewha BIAC

For that have asked, I have received no word from brewha.

trimixdiver1 said:

I'm at the point to have proof that these claims are correct. Both sides. Any way to get a micrometer on the walls to determine how thick they are? Just doesn't seem that 16 gauge would be that easy to bang back into shape. Maybe 16mil but not 16g.

Anyway there is a lot of he said she said, but the she said is from a loyal customer and not the company. So on that fact, I'm swinging towards the OP for now.

Click to expand...

FYI 16 gauge is .059" or about 1.5mm 16 mil would be over ten times that thick.

Vesteroid said:

FYI 16 gauge is .059" or about 1.5mm 16 mil would be over ten times that thick.

Click to expand...

?? By my calculations 16 mil would equal 0.4064mm. How is that 10x thicker than 1.5mm? Are you confusing mil with mm? A mil is .001". Also, SS 16ga is usually a nominal .065" thick.

sandyeggoxj said:

?? By my calculations 16 mil would equal 0.4064mm. How is that 10x thicker than 1.5mm? Are you confusing mil with mm? A mil is .001". Also, SS 16ga is usually a nominal .065" thick.

Click to expand...

Thanks, and mil not mm.

Zymurg said:

... I don't know of any homebrew equipment that uses thicker material (though it may be out there) and I am aware of many companies that use 0.8mm and 1.2mm..

Click to expand...

for record I believe that Brewers Hardware uses 3mm stainless on their inner jacket walls(15 gallon) . But their non jacketed are 1.5mm

I am going to revise my opinion a bit. I did not read the entire thread. If the vendor offered to replace the damaged unit for $1000 (roughtly 20% of the total system) that is not as outrageous as reflected in my first reaction.

On the other hand, producing a unit that can be damaged by using it as directed, but will fail or be get damaged by a small but predictable error, is a poor design. They know people are going to hook it up to muni water that has a pressure that exceeds the safe opertion level of their product.

They should count on some customers going to make mistakes. Forgett to open a valve or something plugs up a hole. Stuff happems during a brew day. If they can avoid problems with a simple pressure selease valve, it is (IMO) irresponsible to leave it out of the design.

For me, it is like Ford making a car out of paper mache' and saying it is a perfectly safe car, it is your fault because you ran into a tree. If you did not hit the tree, everythign would be fine.

Just my 2 cents.

RufusBrewer said:

I am going to revise my opinion a bit. I did not read the entire thread. If the vendor offered to replace the damaged unit for $1000 (roughtly 20% of the total system) that is not as outrageous as reflected in my first reaction.

On the other hand, producing a unit that can be damaged by using it as directed, but will fail or be get damaged by a small but predictable error, is a poor design. They know people are going to hook it up to muni water that has a pressure that exceeds the safe opertion level of their product.

They should count on some customers going to make mistakes. Forgett to open a valve or something plugs up a hole. Stuff happems during a brew day. If they can avoid problems with a simple pressure selease valve, it is (IMO) irresponsible to leave it out of the design.

For me, it is like Ford making a car out of paper mache' and saying it is a perfectly safe car, it is your fault because you ran into a tree. If you did not hit the tree, everythign would be fine.

Just my 2 cents.

Click to expand...

When you consider the cost of the investment , it only reinforces your position.

Elfmaze said:

for record I believe that Brewers Hardware uses 3mm stainless on their inner jacket walls(15 gallon) . But their non jacketed are 1.5mm

Click to expand...

According to Brewer's Hardware website their 15 gal conical uses 1.5 mm thick walls.

https://www.brewershardware.com/15-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Conical-Fermentor.html

Zymurg said:

According to Brewer's Hardware website their 15 gal conical uses 1.5 mm thick walls.

https://www.brewershardware.com/15-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Conical-Fermentor.html

Click to expand...

1.5mm = 0.059" ~ 16ga (approx)

Zymurg said:

According to Brewer's Hardware website their 15 gal conical uses 1.5 mm thick walls.

https://www.brewershardware.com/15-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Conical-Fermentor.html

Click to expand...

The non jacketed ones, yes. but their jacketed one use 3mm inner and 1.5 outer. The wall that buckled on his would have been twice as thick... BUT even BH only rates the jacket pressure to 29psi.

This situation was not about over pressurizing. It was caused by a vacuum. Those of us who own these systems take the precautions to avoid this. The OP probably served as an unfortunate teacher for many owners who came along after him. I had been well schooled about vacuums when I took a pro brewing course. So, I knew I either needed a vacuum relief valve or open a top vent. I think the general procedure most of us use is placing a starsan soaked cloth over one of the top vents and slightly open it during the initial chill. I personally place a paper towel over a top port and secure it with a rubber band or twist tie. Then I slightly open the port and never have any vacuum problems. Brewha now offers a vacuum relief as an option.

Well according to the manufacturer this was not a suspected vacuum. It was a clogged jacket or clogged jacket port which caused the pressure in the jacket to increase beyond the allowed amount. I don't think everyone here agrees that was the cause, but that's what the manufacturers response was.

geoffey said:

Well according to the manufacturer this was not a suspected vacuum. It was a clogged jacket or clogged jacket port which caused the pressure in the jacket to increase beyond the allowed amount. I don't think everyone here agrees that was the cause, but that's what the manufacturers response was.

Click to expand...

Actually he thought it was a vacuum too, read below. Very unfortunate but this was a vacuum caused by the operator.

Originally Posted by BREWHAEquipmentCo View Post
This is Nathan from BREWHA. I fully support my products as many customers on this forum have attested.

The jackets on the BREWHA Boil Kettle and Jacketed 3-in-1 conical allow brewers to have chemical-free sanitation and reduced equipment by providing a means to chill wort after the boil is completed, right inside the 3-in-1. It also provides a convenient and easy means for regulation of fermentation temperature. With it, additional chillers are not needed which add cost, time, and increased risk of microbial contamination. These jackets and vessels are not designed to withstand high pressure. High pressure would require the use of thicker steel and require pressure certification, which would push the price of the equipment significantly higher.

I make it very clear on my website, emails sent to customers and through other marketing that the vessel pressure should not go over 3psi and the vessels’ exits should not be restricted in any way (other than a short blow-off hose which does not let pressure or a vacuum occur). It is the brewer’s responsibility to ensure that this is adhered to. If this is followed, the vessel will not deform from pressure or vacuum.

Aside from the above, the customer in this situation did not provide any proof of a blockage caused by the design or a manufacturer’s fault. When I asked for some evidence that I could show my supplier, I was sent a photo of a few flecks in his hand of what appears to be welding/carbon soot that he had removed from the wall inside the jacket, where it cannot be cleaned from polishing. There were no pictures or evidence provided of actual blockage that would cause pressure buildup. I asked about the possibility of a vacuum forming and he responded that a cap was resting on the port. If it was just the cap, and not sealed, air should have been permitted to enter to eliminate any vacuum so I did not conclude it was a vacuum. Twice I asked for photographs showing the brewing setup when it happened to try and understand the situation more and work towards finding a probable cause and solution, and neither time were these provided.

Based on the evidence I received, I responded to him several days ago proposing one of three courses of action. The first was for him to take the vessel to a metal repair shop such as an autobody or metal fab shop that could push the inside back out so the Mash Colander could still fit. The second was to purchase a replacement 20 gallon jacketed 3-in-1 vessel that I offered to him at below my cost. The third was to ship it all back, and I would have a shop here push it back out and refund 100% of his purchase less the cost of having the vessel fixed here.

I unfortunately agree either way(vacuum or over pressurizing the jacket) it was user error. Even if it was a clogged jacket line I wouldn't apply a pressure (city water line) that the system is not rated for. Even BH only rates the jacket for 29psi. City water pressure can damage that one too.

Nathan, is the jacket a coiled line around or is it more an open area between the inner and outer wall?

I'll be honest, I haven't even thought of jacket pressure as a problem until i read this post. I swapped out my plans for a small garden pump that physically cannot generate enough pressure to damage mine.

Elfmaze said:

I unfortunately agree either way(vacuum or over pressurizing the jacket) it was user error. Even if it was a clogged jacket line I wouldn't apply a pressure (city water line) that the system is not rated for. Even BH only rates the jacket for 29psi. City water pressure can damage that one too.

Nathan, is the jacket a coiled line around or is it more an open area between the inner and outer wall?

I'll be honest, I haven't even thought of jacket pressure as a problem until i read this post. I swapped out my plans for a small garden pump that physically cannot generate enough pressure to damage mine.

Click to expand...

When I had the unit "hammered" out, we cleaned the jacket out. We found handfuls of the black junk which I sent pictures of to Nathan at Brewha. It would seem obvious that the jacket clogged during cooling (although a vacuum is possible as well). You can call that user error if you want. I don't. Brewha has a tutorial video on their website site (which I watched to learn how to use the unit) and the owner of the company shows and tells you to hook it up to your kitchen faucet and start cooling. I guess that means we both are user errors?

jeffreybandel said:

When I had the unit "hammered" out, we cleaned the jacket out. We found handfuls of the black junk which I sent pictures of to Nathan at Brewha. It would seem obvious that the jacket clogged during cooling (although a vacuum is possible as well). You can call that user error if you want. I don't. Brewha has a tutorial video on their website site (which I watched to learn how to use the unit) and the owner of the company shows and tells you to hook it up to your kitchen faucet and start cooling. I guess that means we both are user errors?

Click to expand...

The debris was found AFTER the unit was hammered back out? That debris could have been caused by the hammering out process.

I still vote vacuum.

I can vouch for the OP regarding black stuff inside the jacket. Mine also had some of the black stuff and it was clearly visible in the top port of the jacket. I connected my water hose and ran it full force as directed by Nathan and it flushed it out. Lucky? Maybe. I hope the OP is able to use his system now and make good beer. I honestly don't run mine with any kind of pressure regulator and have had no problems. However, I am extremely careful when it comes to vacuums.

The three photos below show the stuff I spotted in the port and what I collected in a paint strainer. BTW, the piece of wire is what I used to clean the area around the inside of the port.

Gameface said:

The debris was found AFTER the unit was hammered back out? That debris could have been caused by the hammering out process.

Click to expand...

If you had been following the whole post you would know that debris was found before hammering. In fact, the first picture and email I sent Nathan showed the black stuff and he said it was due to excess water pressure.

limulus said:

I can vouch for the OP regarding black stuff inside the jacket. Mine also had some of the black stuff and it was clearly visible in the top port of the jacket. I connected my water hose and ran it full force as directed by Nathan and it flushed it out. Lucky? Maybe. I hope the OP is able to use his system now and make good beer. I honestly don't run mine with any kind of pressure regulator and have had no problems. However, I am extremely careful when it comes to vacuums.

The three photos below show the stuff I spotted in the port and what I collected in a paint strainer. BTW, the piece of wire is what I used to clean the area around the inside of the port.

Click to expand...

And I received mine shortly before Limuls so he knew of my problem and was able to take precautionary measures.

jeffreybandel said:

If you had been following the whole post you would know that debris was found before hammering. In fact, the first picture and email I sent Nathan showed the black stuff and he said it was due to excess water pressure.

Click to expand...

Your last post was worded strangely and it sounded like the black stuff was found after the hammering. I have been following this thread. You placed a cap over the opening before dropping temps... You pulled a vacuum which would cause the lid to seal down.

I've worked with vacuum systems before in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. You don't need connections to be tight in order for them to seal once you start pulling a vacuum.

I've also seen large SS containers collapse where I work now, in a food production and packaging plant. They get large 2000# SS totes of pureed fruit that they typically store cold. Well, an operator pulled one of the totes and incorrectly steamed the fittings. They use steam to sanitize all the fittings and lines, but this guy accidentally opened the tote while it was steaming. Since that's not consistent with our quality practices they didn't use the tote, so the operator put it back in cold storage... Collapsed tote with very thick stainless steal walls.

Gameface said:

Your last post was worded strangely and it sounded like the black stuff was found after the hammering. I have been following this thread. You placed a cap over the opening before dropping temps... You pulled a vacuum which would cause the lid to seal down.

I've worked with vacuum systems before in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. You don't need connections to be tight in order for them to seal once you start pulling a vacuum.

I've also seen large SS containers collapse where I work now, in a food production and packaging plant. They get large 2000# SS totes of pureed fruit that they typically store cold. Well, an operator pulled one of the totes and incorrectly steamed the fittings. They use steam to sanitize all the fittings and lines, but this guy accidentally opened the tote while it was steaming. Since that's not consistent with our quality practices they didn't use the tote, so the operator put it back in cold storage... Collapsed tote with very thick stainless steal walls.

Click to expand...

The black stuff was found before and after hammering. After hammering there were handfuls of it. I believe there was so much black junk water couldn't get through.

Is it sandy? I wonder if they use a "green sand" to form the jacket? If not is it welding residue? Slag?

Gotta wonder if they back purged the weld? And if not, do they repasivate it?

If there was that much, then I don't care how you put engineering controls on it, it's going to fail no matter what, if blockage is an issue.

It is slag. Look at my post on the previous page photo #3. I spotted it before I used the jacket and contacted Nathan. He told me to connect my hose and run the water through it which I did at full pressure. The only place that seemed to have the slag was that top port and that all washed out through the bottom port. He probably went to his manufacturer after that and cracked down on the QC. I have seen no other reports of this. As the OP stated, we bought ours around the same time. I had the same pressure valve that Brewha sells and have discontinued using it and I have had no trouble. Nathan told me the 3psi number was intentionally conservative.

As far as passivation, I have had no trouble there either, but I occasionally clean mine with barkeepers friend just to protect it. On the home brew scale, Barkeepers Friend works just fine. Re-passivation is a way of life in a commercial brewery. They have SOPs for routine re-passivation. I do the same for all my equipment and even the sinks in my kitchen.

trimixdiver1 said:

Is it sandy? I wonder if they use a "green sand" to form the jacket? If not is it welding residue? Slag?

Gotta wonder if they back purged the weld? And if not, do they repasivate it?

If there was that much, then I don't care how you put engineering controls on it, it's going to fail no matter what, if blockage is an issue.

Click to expand...

It’s not fit for merchantability. It’s reasonable to assume that a consumer is going to hook their hose up to the unit. If the unit is going to fail because either the inlet pressure is too high or the outlet pressure is constricted and a simple blow off pressure regulator would prevent this from happening then the manufacturer has failed.

DoninDEN said:

It’s not fit for merchantability. It’s reasonable to assume that a consumer is going to hook their hose up to the unit. If the unit is going to fail because either the inlet pressure is too high or the outlet pressure is constricted and a simple blow off pressure regulator would prevent this from happening then the manufacturer has failed.

Click to expand...

I wonder what changes have been made in the 3 years since the last reply?

kh54s10 said:

I wonder what changes have been made in the 3 years since the last reply?

Click to expand...

kh54s10.... your reply popped this up in my view and i read this entire thread. (Had time to kill for sure).
It made me laugh to think about this one issue vs. the bewie thread. I read that threat at least twice before i pulled the trigger. There was more than one issue on that thread, yet i still bought. What a change in 3 years. What a great time to be in homebrewing- so many choices for automation, ease, etc.
I will say i bought a tri clamp carb stone from brewha- it was cheaper than anywhere else. It's been fine.
No point at all to this rambling post. Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Cheers all!