Munich Helles Gavin's Mightily Malty Munich Helles

mclaughlindw4 said:

I was hoping you would say no. Since this was first time I've been off, and just so happened to be the first time I did a full volume mash.

Perhaps it was something else then. I guess you find you need a lot more acidity when using full volume? This is what bru'n water was telling me as well, except I way overshot it.

Anyways, sorry to de-rail your thread. I've asked over in brew science but will need to ask again cause I got no response. Need to figure out why I was so off.

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No worries mate. Not a derail at all. Very relevant as I specified the full volume in my original post. Just be sure to adjust your mash and sparge volumes acordingly in Bru'n Water.

Some folks claim acid additions in the form of lactic or phosphoric acid will result in greater accuracy than using acidulated malt. I have not found that to be the case but that is very weak anecdotal evidence. I use a little acid malt in just about every brew save for something very dark and roasty.

Thanks to the OP for this post. Looks delicious and I plan on brewing it this weekend.

Has anyone (including OP) built a profile for this beer from scratch with RO water? Was going to use acid malt for Ph and calcium chloride (a la the water primer for dummies), but given the rave reviews over the original recipe and its water profile, I'm toying with the idea of adding a little epsom salt.

thrillhouse said:

Thanks to the OP for this post. Looks delicious and I plan on brewing it this weekend.

Has anyone (including OP) built a profile for this beer from scratch with RO water? Was going to use acid malt for Ph and calcium chloride (a la the water primer for dummies), but given the rave reviews over the original recipe and its water profile, I'm toying with the idea of adding a little epsom salt.

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Thanks @Thrillhouse . I really enjoyed this beer and plan another rebrew after a recently brewed Pils is gone. When I do, I will use RO and build to a relatively softer profile as I have been doing lately with lighter beers. I think the sulphate is undesriably high and would follow @mabrungard 's suggestion from earlier in the thread to cut that back along with most other ions too.

I'm still very much exploring and learning water profiles. Here is a softer but similar profile i used with my Munich Dunkel. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Munich Dunkel Profile

On the contrary, I think your post was very helpful! I particularly appreciate your comments about the sulfate. Thanks!

I find that most German styles benefit from a light mineralization. The Brown profile that Gavin used is more suited to ale brewing. Reducing the sulfate to less than 50 ppm is desirable, some would take it much lower than that and that is a personal preference. Having some sulfate helps dry the beer's finish and that is welcome in a Dunkel.

I wish I would have seen this particular recipe last weekend! However what I worked out on my own from various recipes is so close to this I suspect that I'll have almost identical results. I came up with my own recipe based on two or three I saw and what I had on hand. I am amazed at how close it is to this recipe.

I did 9 lbs of Pils, 0.5 lb Munich, 2 oz Melanoidin malt and 5 Oz Acid Malt.

I started with RO, 5 PPM TDS 8.5 gallons. I added 1.5 tsp CaCl and 0.5 MgSO4. My pH at boil was spot on at 5.2 So.. I can say, at least in my case AJ's recommendation plus the small amount of Epsom Salt seemed to work okay. I did add a 1/4 tsp of cheap LD Carslon Yeast Energizer and 1/4 Yeast Nutrient and pitched a two step w34/70 decanted 2L starter .. around 350 billion cells. Took right off. Is looking good so far. Ended up with 6 gallons in the carboy, but a lot of break material. Should have a full five gallons to keg though so it is good.

The step mash I used was very close to the one recommended.

As long as you use a soft water profile but with some CaCl and Mg for the yeast I suspect you won't notice the difference. I'll let you know in 3-4 weeks... If you are a perfectionist you might also want to add a 0.5 tsp of Gypsum, but I think that is a "doean't matter".. really...

Fred

mabrungard said:

I find that most German styles benefit from a light mineralization. The Brown profile that Gavin used is more suited to ale brewing. Reducing the sulfate to less than 50 ppm is desirable, some would take it much lower than that and that is a personal preference. Having some sulfate helps dry the beer's finish and that is welcome in a Dunkel.

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Thanks for the tips Martin. Brewing a Vienna or Dunkel this weekend and hopefully can put these pointers into good effect. Very much appreciated.

I am always scared to use any of the geographical profiles in Bru'n water. Other than "Munich (boiled)", I am not sure what the local brewers will have done to alter those profiles.

Rightly or wrongly I have tended to stick with color and balanced/malty/bitter as my guide. Hopefully as I learn more I will develop greater proficiency in target selection/tweaking.

The geographic profiles are very instructive...as long as you look at ONLY the flavor ion concentrations. Ignore the calcium and bicarb content, since that is going to need to vary to fit your brew. But those geographic profiles help illustrate the level of flavor ions that MAY have been applied to those original beers from those areas. If you compare those profiles, you will often find that they are typically lightly mineralized with respect to flavor ions. That is the message I want all brewers to absorb into their souls...don't overmineralize!

mabrungard said:

I find that most German styles benefit from a light mineralization. The Brown profile that Gavin used is more suited to ale brewing. Reducing the sulfate to less than 50 ppm is desirable, some would take it much lower than that and that is a personal preference. Having some sulfate helps dry the beer's finish and that is welcome in a Dunkel.

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Unrelated to the Munich Helles in the OP.

Following on from your advice in this thread and elsewhere this is the water I built for yesterday's brew: a Märzen. I hope I've not gone too wide of the mark and it will contribute to a tasty beer.

Thanks again Martin for all your tremendously useful help.

Thanks for all of the quick replies. Brewed this beauty yesterday with WLP940 (mexican lager yeast), pitched cold at 52 F. This morning I had a nice krausen and some airlock activity. Looking forward to the end results!

Hey Gavin,

I'm looking to take a stab at this style in a few weeks, and I had a lot of success with your altbier. What is the purpose of using the melanoiden malt? I've seen it used here and there and it seems like a substitute for a decoction mash schedule. Wouldn't that be more stylistically appropriate? Also, could you use an ale yeast (WY1007 or WLP029) to obtain the same character? I've got lager yeast on hand but I don't really want to tie up my keezer.

specharka said:

Hey Gavin,

I'm looking to take a stab at this style in a few weeks, and I had a lot of success with your altbier. What is the purpose of using the melanoiden malt? I've seen it used here and there and it seems like a substitute for a decoction mash schedule. Wouldn't that be more stylistically appropriate? Also, could you use an ale yeast (WY1007 or WLP029) to obtain the same character? I've got lager yeast on hand but I don't really want to tie up my keezer.

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Great to hear you like the Alt.

Yes you're dead right on the melanoiden malt. I use a little in lagers when I am not doing a decoction. I am planning a rebrew of the Helles without the melanoiden and with a decoction. A decoction mash is certainly a traditional approach to making a Helles. It's fun to emulate these things I think.

Recent similar lager examples include two German Pilsners, one with melanoiden (similar %) and an infusion mash. One without melanoiden and a decoction mash. Both were very similar in appearance and malt flavor. I really enjoyed both.

Pils with Melanoiden

Pils without Melanoiden


On the yeast question, prior to this Helles I brewed one with WLP029 (the Kolsch yeast). I know it is a popular choice but I am not a fan of this yeast for lagers as the beer (at least to me) did not taste like a light lager should taste.

Despite fermenting the beer in the mid 50's with WLP029 there was a very clear floral component to the beer from the yeast. Not at all unpleasant but not what I want in a lager. Just tasted like a Kolsch.

In my view if you want a lager to taste like a lager you need a lager yeast. Particularly in a Helles where the subtle yeast derived flavors will not be hidden. The two Helles beers (lager and hybrid) were very dissimilar.

To each their own of course. Best of luck with whatever you decide to brew.

Gavin C said:

Great to hear you like the Alt.

Yes you're dead right on the melanoiden malt. I use a little in lagers when I am not doing a decoction. I am planning a rebrew of the Helles without the melanoiden and with a decoction. A decoction mash is certainly a traditional approach to making a Helles. It's fun to emulate these things I think.

Recent similar lager examples include two German Pilsners, one with melanoiden (similar %) and an infusion mash. One without melanoiden and a decoction mash. Both were very similar in appearance and malt flavor. I really enjoyed both.

Pils with Melanoiden

Pils without Melanoiden

On the yeast question, prior to this Helles I brewed one with WLP029 (the Kolsch yeast). I know it is a popular choice but I am not a fan of this yeast for lagers as the beer (at least to me) did not taste like a light lager should taste.

Despite fermenting the beer in the mid 50's with WLP029 there was a very clear floral component to the beer from the yeast. Not at all unpleasant but not what I want in a lager. Just tasted like a Kolsch.

In my view if you want a lager to taste like a lager you need a lager yeast. Particularly in a Helles where the subtle yeast derived flavors will not be hidden. The two Helles beers (lager and hybrid) were very dissimilar.

To each their own of course. Best of luck with whatever you decide to brew.

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Thanks for the quick response. I completely understand where you're coming from -- I recently brewed a pseudo rauchbier with WY1007 in lieu of lager yeast, and though it is quite delicious, it doesn't really taste like a lager. I can see how much more prominent that difference might be with a less assertive grainbill.

I'm still hoping for a quick turnaround, so I might just do an extended cold crash around 40F and lager in my keg. What do you think of the following:

8 lb Pils
0.5 lb Vienna
0.5 lb Munich
0.25 lb Carapils

Decoction mash, rests at 130, 145, 156 & 168. 4.5 AAU Liberty @ 60 min. Ferment 10 days @ 48F, 4 day D-rest, fine & cold crash for 2-3 weeks. Transfer to keg and lager for another 2-3 weeks before tapping.

specharka said:

What do you think of the following:

8 lb Pils
0.5 lb Vienna
0.5 lb Munich
0.25 lb Carapils

Decoction mash, rests at 130, 145, 156 & 168. 4.5 AAU Liberty @ 60 min. Ferment 10 days @ 48F, 4 day D-rest, fine & cold crash for 2-3 weeks. Transfer to keg and lager for another 2-3 weeks before tapping.

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I'd eliminate the protein rest.

I'd delete Carapils. I never see the need for it and typical use no crystal in my lagers. (exception being the ~1% melanoiden we discussed)

I get my lagers off the yeast and into the keg ASAP so would not be a proponent of your scheduling. I lager and carb in the keg. I don't use predetermined fermentation schedules but most lagers are in the keg at or near 2 weeks following pitching. Depending on the OG and yeast that timing will of course vary.

Plenty of ways to skin the lager cat but those are my thoughts for what little they are worth.

Lately I've been liking a small amount of the lower lovibond Cara malts in my Helles instead of Munich or Vienna malts. A 96% Pils, 4% Carahell makes a nice Helles.

Going to give this recipe a second try. I have some of the WLP835 German Lager X yeast so I am going to see how that works with this grain bill.

I bottled a couple bottles from the keg of the first batch. They sat around in the keezer a few months(6 month total lagering) still very nice.

Gavin C said:

I'd eliminate the protein rest.



I'd delete Carapils. I never see the need for it and typical use no crystal in my lagers. (exception being the ~1% melanoiden we discussed)



I get my lagers off the yeast and into the keg ASAP so would not be a proponent of your scheduling. I lager and carb in the keg. I don't use predetermined fermentation schedules but most lagers are in the keg at or near 2 weeks following pitching. Depending on the OG and yeast that timing will of course vary.



Plenty of ways to skin the lager cat but those are my thoughts for what little they are worth.

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So I took your advice for the most part (kept the Carapils as I'd already crushed it), and it turned out AMAZING. Tastes awesome and looks great at 3 weeks! I did notice some DMS once I kegged the beer, but it dissipated within a week and now there are zero perceptible flaws. Just smooth, malty, crisp and clean. I don't know why people think light lagers are difficult to execute.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463176383.498697.jpg

Brewed this recently.... It is delicious!!

Thanks for the recipe!

glick said:

Brewed this recently.... It is delicious!!

Thanks for the recipe!

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Great to hear that @Glick

Post up a picture of your creation if you get a chance.

Love me some lagerporn™

Don't hate on the CaraPils in a Pilsner or Helles style beer - that's where it's meant to be. The best Pilsner I've made to date actually used it at 11% and it was perfect (other 89% was pilsner). It adds a nice mild grainyness plus ridiculous head without any cloying sweetness.

In other styles I think there are better options though. Don't just add it for "head retention"!

schematix said:

Don't hate on the CaraPils in a Pilsner or Helles style beer - that's where it's meant to be. ....

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I'd respectfully disagree but that's the very nature of recipe formulation and homebrewing.

If a brewer wants to tweak a recipe to their own desires, so be it. This thread simply covers this one recipe by this one brewer.

No hate here, I simply offered advice to someone asking for some. The more I explore base malts and styles the less crystal I seem to use. Others will have a very different viewpoint.

I've seen the amzing pics of your beers and setup. I have no doubt that a Pilsner or Helles made with you at the helm would be a beer I would guzzle down fast and ask, nay demand, seconds, regardless of it's carapils %.

Thanks for your input though.

Gavin C said:

I'd respectfully disagree but that's the very nature of recipe formulation and homebrewing.

If a brewer wants to tweak a recipe to their own desires, so be it. This thread simply covers this one recipe by this one brewer.

No hate here, I simply offered advice to someone asking for some. The more I explore base malts and styles the less crystal I seem to use. Others will have a very different viewpoint.

I've seen the amzing pics of your beers and setup. I have no doubt that a Pilsner or Helles made with you at the helm would be a beer I would guzzle down fast and ask, nay demand, seconds, regardless of it's carapils %.

Thanks for your imput though.

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I don't think we're that far apart in our view of crystal malts.

My comment was specifically in regard to CaraPils and the two polarizing camps I see around here:

1. The group that adds it to virtually everything for "head retention". In my (humble) opinion this is usually not the best solution to a head retention issue. But if you want more body without color and you've already optimized your mash temp this can be a reasonable addition.

2. The group that feels that it shouldn't be used, or only at 5% max. In my (humble) opinion, in Pilsner (or very similar) type beer it is actually better closer to 10%. I don't think CaraPils has the same cloying sweetness at higher color crystals, but rather gives the beer some much needed body plus insane foam and foam stability, which is perfect for the style.

Hi Gavin,
Do you standardise the step mash temp schedule for all the lagers?
I notice you have different mash temp for helles, Munich dunkel, etc.

NobitaDoreamon said:

Hi Gavin,
Do you standardise the step mash temp schedule for all the lagers?
I notice you have different mash temp for helles, Munich dunkel, etc.

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G'day Nobita. Welcome to HBT

No I don't have a standardised profile. It's something I've experimented with quite a bit and no longer use a protein rest for my lagers. Typically I'm targeting 140F as my first rest temperature for most lagers. (Might do higher if/when I try a Bohemian Pilsner)

The profile I use for my German Pilsner is pretty close to a standard I suppose, having used it a few times now. Hope that helps some. Cheers.

Thanks Gavin. Very nice Doreamon.
I am very new to brewing with lager, please bear with me as I plan to brew this beer and your munich dunkel.

I see that you used 124F > 150F > mash out temp.
If you were to brew this Helles recipe again with melanoidin malt, what will your temp profile be? Are you going to do multi rest mash? I presume that you are not going to add the single decoction like you have done with Munich Dunkel.

NobitaDoreamon said:

Thanks Gavin. Very nice Doreamon.
I am very new to brewing with lager, please bear with me as I plan to brew this beer and your munich dunkel.

I see that you used 124F > 150F > mash out temp.
If you were to brew this Helles recipe again with melanoidin malt, what will your temp profile be? Are you going to do multi rest mash? I presume that you are not going to add the single decoction like you have done with Munich Dunkel.

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I plan on using the profile I use for my Pilsner when next I brew it.



I may end up doing a decoction (single mash) and delete the melanoiden. Not sure yet. I think either approach would work well.

I have brewed this recipe twice doing a single infusion at 150F with 2oz of melanoiden malt and they came out good enough for blue ribbons. Second try got best in show using WLP835 lager X yeast. The lager X yeast seemed to allow a bit more hops to come through compared to WLP833.

ba-brewer said:

I have brewed this recipe twice doing a single infusion at 150F with 2oz of melanoiden malt and they came out good enough for blue ribbons. Second try got best in show using WLP835 lager X yeast. The lager X yeast seemed to allow a bit more hops to come through compared to WLP833.

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BOS Congrats! Fantastic stuff.

I need to try this with a different yeast. 835X sounds interesting.

I'll be brewing this in about a month. Will be using W 34/70 dry.

Thanks Gavin for the profit.
Ba-brewer, that is a very good option with the yeast and mash profit. Save a bit of gas with this one.

Brewed this up last weekend and went with WLP835 German Lager X. Steadily fermenting away at 50*, I think I will begin the passive raise to 67 over the weekend and hopefully cold crash with gelatin by next weekend.

First attempt at a lager in 3.5 years of brewing!

this is what I made... no idea why I got on the your other thread. sorry about that. Other than the yeast, I could only get 2206 Bav Lager yeast, everything else is the same... added the yeast last night, I stepped it 4 times, but took some out to freeze for later use. Will see how it does this evening when I get home. Took awhile in fridge to get to 50 degrees. Will be glad in winter when water temps allow me to get closer to 50.

wyowolf said:

this is what I made... no idea why I got on the your other thread. sorry about that. Other than the yeast, I could only get 2206 Bav Lager yeast, everything else is the same... added the yeast last night, I stepped it 4 times, but took some out to freeze for later use. Will see how it does this evening when I get home. Took awhile in fridge to get to 50 degrees. Will be glad in winter when water temps allow me to get closer to 50.

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Let us know how it turns out. Post up a picture or two.

This is my first foray into lagering with a proper fermentation chamber. I've half-assed it before, with half-assed results.

I really wanted a lager, but didn't want a pilsner... but also didn't want a bock. This seemed like just the ticket.

Ditched the acid malt, since I fly sparge on a RIMS system, replacing it with pilsner malt. Also, I doubled the batch, planning for 11 gallons at 1.047. Ended up with 10 gallons at 1.052 for 75% efficiency.

I plan to follow the brulosophy fast lagering profile with gelatin fining.

Anywho, pictures are worth a thousand words, right?

The mash. Did a protein rest, a long ramp up to 150, then mash out at 168.


The sparge. Gotta love the clarity from a recirculating mash.


The boil. Drinking some American Rye Ale in the fall sun. Gotta love it.


In the brand new to me fermentation chamber!


Still pretty warm... groundwater (I have a well for my water source) in Tidewater, VA isn't that terribly cold. Still waiting to pitch.


Really looking forward to the results.

First taste last night... tasted great, but not quite as clear as I would have hoped... yes I used gelatin...

wyowolf said:

First taste last night... tasted great, but not quite as clear as I would have hoped... yes I used gelatin...

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First pour off the keg usually will contain that first few ounces of sediment filled beer. My guess is the following beers will be clearer. Thanks for the update.

Got it into kegs today. Looking and tasting pretty good. Can't see any chill haze coming out of the cold-crashed fermenter. Not bad for less than a month on a lager!

Punx Clever said:

Got it into kegs today.....

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Nice pics.

Looks very dark for a Helles. Probably just the lighting.

Gavin C said:

I plan on using the profile I use for my Pilsner when next I brew it.

I may end up doing a decoction (single mash) and delete the melanoiden. Not sure yet. I think either approach would work well.

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Did you ever use this method?

eluterio said:

Did you ever use this method?

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No. I haven't brewed it since that post.