Thinking about converting to all sanke kegs.....

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bassistnc

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Hi all, I'm new here but have been brewing for a few years. I am considering using sanke 1/6 barrels for my kegging purposes due to the recent increases in ball lock keg prices. I haven't used any pin locks yet so I am not extremely familiar with them, but I do know that using them in my kegerator would limit me to 5 kegs at a time vs. the 6 I can fit if they are 1/6 barrels or ball locks. I disassembled the fat tire keg that I just finished last night and it seems like they are easy enough to disassemble, clean, and reassemble. Are there any major negatives that I am not thinking of? It just seems like it would be nice to pay 50 bucks per keg instead of the 65 plus that everyone seems to want for ball locks. Plus, I could swap commercial beers amongst my home brews without having to change from ball lock connections to a sanke coupler. Thanks in advance!

Jay
 
Prices on 1/6 bbl sanke kegs can fluctuate a lot too. Depending on where you get them and if they're actually legit or not. I picked up to (100% legit, decommissioned) 1/6 bbl kegs earlier this week from my supplier. I'll be converting them into fermenting vessels before the end of the weekend (waiting for some welding supplies to come in). Remember, if you keep that keg you paid a DEPOSIT on, you're stealing it. New kegs run a lot more than the deposit you paid.

Keep in mind, you'll need a coupler for each sanke keg you have on tap. If you want to be able to switch between the two types, you'll need to spend more on fittings to allow you to do so.

Personally, I'm not buying any commercial beer, in keg or any other vessel.
 
This is NOT stealing them but USING them. He said that he would continue to swap for store bought beer. Now if you get them for deposit price and then alter their shape (read-cut the top off for a keggle) to a point that they can never be used as a keg again, then THAT is stealing.
 
This is NOT stealing them but USING them. He said that he would continue to swap for store bought beer. Now if you get them for deposit price and then alter their shape (read-cut the top off for a keggle) to a point that they can never be used as a keg again, then THAT is stealing.

I'm buying legally decommissioned kegs ONLY. I do that for ALL the sanke kegs I have. It does make it more difficult to locate kegs at times, depending on supply. I'm not about to buy those listed on CL or ebay that are not legally obtained in the first place.
 
Golddiggie said:
I'm buying legally decommissioned kegs ONLY. I do that for ALL the sanke kegs I have. It does make it more difficult to locate kegs at times, depending on supply. I'm not about to buy those listed on CL or ebay that are not legally obtained in the first place.

I wasn't posting to you gold, we must have hit send at the same time. I was replying to the second post stating that it would be stealing the kegs to use them in the manor that the OP was planning. He has no plans to alter them and the can be returned at any time for re use. I have 2 sankeys that I have deposits on that since returning to brewing have not been used and can be returned at any time. The only draw back is that when I first got them (about 10 years ago) the deposit was only $20.00 each but today the deposit is $50.00 and the liquor store has it stapled to the wall as a joke.
 
I don't think I would be stealing the kegs. As was stated, they would be unaltered and could be returned at any time. I do understand that the brewery may not be enthused by my choice to use their keg as my own though, and had not considered that when I first wrote on the forum. Also, since my first post I have been able to snag a couple good deals on ebay. My local brewing store led me to believe that the overall supply of repurposed ball lock kegs was nearly dried up, so I was simply trying to brainstorm.

As far as the new ball lock kegs on the market, is there a brand that stands above the res or are they all about the same? Thanks for all input.

Jay
 
you can also buy new sanke 1/6th barrels. however they are about 100 bucks a pop unless you bought a pallette of 24. also the brand new ball lock gets are nice. i bought a 2.5 gallon one for my kid's root beer.
 
I wasn't posting to you gold, we must have hit send at the same time. I was replying to the second post stating that it would be stealing the kegs to use them in the manor that the OP was planning. He has no plans to alter them and the can be returned at any time for re use. I have 2 sankeys that I have deposits on that since returning to brewing have not been used and can be returned at any time. The only draw back is that when I first got them (about 10 years ago) the deposit was only $20.00 each but today the deposit is $50.00 and the liquor store has it stapled to the wall as a joke.

And when you f the spring clips on the connector, then what? If I take your car, drive it for a year, bring it back to you full of gas and new tires.....its the same damn thing. Go ahead and talk yourself into believing it isn't stealing. It is. If your so sure it's "no big deal", call the brewery/distributor/liquor store. See what they say. I'm not the keg police. But one thing I hate is convoluted logic. I'm not trying to be be judgemental about the kegs themselves. Many people on here (if not most) have keggles and such. But just except it for what it is and move on. Don't try to convince yourself it's OK.
 
And when you f the spring clips on the connector, then what? If I take your car, drive it for a year, bring it back to you full of gas and new tires.....its the same damn thing. Go ahead and talk yourself into believing it isn't stealing. It is. If your so sure it's "no big deal", call the brewery/distributor/liquor store. See what they say. I'm not the keg police. But one thing I hate is convoluted logic.

I have removed and re-inserted the spring clip numerous times and can only see damaging it if the individual has absolutely no mechanical ability. In the event it does get damaged I am of the opinion that a replacement available at McMaster Carrs should be purchased and re-installed to maintain the original integrity. I’m not sure that I understand the comparison of my automobile and a sankey (one has 1,2 or maybe 3 wearable parts and is intended for re-use and the other isn’t) nor do I think that I want to but by this logic I guess that every home brewer in the following states (Connecticut, Iowa, Mass., Maine, N.Y., Oregon, Vermont and Michigan) MUST buy their bottles from a supply shop because on every long neck resealable bottle that I have states clearly on the label to return for deposit.
 
I think your missing my point. Bottles are returned for recycling, not refill. The breweries business plan counts on the empty kegs being returned within a month or so and then refilled with product to be sold again. You keeping it forces them to buy more kegs. Look, do i grab extra napkins at McDonald's when I have a cold? Yes. Do I sometimes take an extra 10 minutes on my lunch break? Of course. But I know its stealing. Do I sleep at night? Yes. Can I look myself in the mirror? Of course. Once again, I'm not judging the OP or anyone. I'm only saying "don't lie to yourself".
 
I'm not sure that I understand your reason for becoming so aggravated, Hammy. I'm new here and maybe I just don't understand the MO of the board here, but I'm pretty sure I asked a simple question. I have some kegs in my kegerator that I have had for 6 months or more. Should I return them even though they are not empty since the brewery expected to have them back? I don't appreciate your tone and am frankly disappointed that I can't post a question on a board without getting flamed. Am I stealing the kegs? Absolutely not. Am I using them in a way that the brewery did not plan on? Possibly (Again, I was asking if there were any unforeseen issues with me using the kegs for my own brews). Have I used the kegs as my own yet? No, and I probably won't. Again, I was just brainstorming ways to save money on kegs. I respect your opinion and input, just not the way you chose to share it.

Jay
 
This subject seems to upset lots of people. You can keep the kegs as long as you want. Your deposit on the keg was to insure that you return the keg once you where done drinking what the owner of the keg put in it. Your deposit is not for you to refill with your own beer again and again till you don't need it anymore. There is no gray area in this topic.
 
Just call your local distributor and buy a few. Sometimes they have them that are destined for scrap for various reasons. Might get a usable one. That's how I got mine for keggles, and I have no moral or legal issues from using them. 100% legal.
 
OP, Some questions are best not asked on this forum. There are people that have a strong opinion on certain subjects. Don't ask about aluminum vs Ssteel, or if a decoction is worth it either. ;-)
 
It is stealing demurrage. If everyone held kegs twice as long as the normal cycle the brewery would have to buy twice as many kegs. That's what a demurrage charge covers.

The guys I'm affiliated with will not sell kegs and it is people like those posting here that are the reason. And, of course, those who just never get around to returning emptied kegs. This is a real problem for small operators but not as big a problem as outright theft of which there is apparently quite a bit.
 
I'm not sure that I understand your reason for becoming so aggravated, Hammy. I'm new here and maybe I just don't understand the MO of the board here, but I'm pretty sure I asked a simple question. I have some kegs in my kegerator that I have had for 6 months or more. Should I return them even though they are not empty since the brewery expected to have them back? I don't appreciate your tone and am frankly disappointed that I can't post a question on a board without getting flamed. Am I stealing the kegs? Absolutely not. Am I using them in a way that the brewery did not plan on? Possibly (Again, I was asking if there were any unforeseen issues with me using the kegs for my own brews). Have I used the kegs as my own yet? No, and I probably won't. Again, I was just brainstorming ways to save money on kegs. I respect your opinion and input, just not the way you chose to share it.

Jay

My response wasn't aimed at the OP (you). Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. But a question was posed and I answered.
 
To all of the keg police on the board, you can rest easily now. I have returned said empty keg and even bought another one full of yummy commercial beer. It is resting happily in my kegerator next to my corny kegs full of home brew (all purchased legally to the best of my knowledge).

It seems that this has been a topic of discussion before and I apologize for ignorantly stirring up a dormant issue, but I have to say I will likely look for other places to gather my information regarding anything beer. It's funny how a community that I expected to be friendly and happy to help was quite the opposite. Maybe I just chose a poor topic to initiate discussion with, but I surely was not expecting the accusatory tone that I was met with. Sorry to have caused issue and I wish happy and delicious brewing to you all.
 
bassistnc said:
It's funny how a community that I expected to be friendly and happy to help was quite the opposite. Maybe I just chose a poor topic to initiate discussion with, but I surely was not expecting the accusatory tone that I was met with. Sorry to have caused issue and I wish happy and delicious brewing to you all.

I'll say this: based on a few months of observation this board is really, really friendly and helpful until:

- the commercial keg (ahem) repurposing comes up (as you now know)
- someone starts talking about their opinions on Secondary fermentation
- no-chill brewing is brought up

The last two are less of a problem than they once were, perhaps. Also, once in awhile someone shows up who is absolutely convinced of something wrong (e.g., head retention and carbonation are the same thing).

Otherwise, though, give the board a second chance. There's good information on here, and many other boards would shut down most of these threads with a stupid "use the search function" reply. I'm pretty new here, too, but my observation (FWIW) suggests there are really good, friendly, helpful people on here!

No matter what, brew and do what you like. I might not repurpose kegs myself, but I have friends who have and do, and I'm not reporting them to the keg police!
 
X2 on giving the board a second chance. Personally I think it's ridiculous for people here to get so vocal over their views of repurposing sanke kegs at every turn. Now if some had a debate thread over it fine. But your questions were valid. I stay away for. The sanke keg topic for a reason. But dont let one instance put you off of hbt. There is a lot of knowledge and a lot of very friendly people here who are more than willing to share it.

As you will soon learn relax, don't worry, have a home brew!

Prost!
 
I think people get passionate about it because there is a lot of grey area in this. How long is keeping it too long? I have some kegs that I poke through over six months, some I blast through in 3 weeks.
What if I bought two commercial kegs, blasted through one, refilled it with my own, then returned both at the same time 4 months after purchase? Did I steal one?

The problem is we're dealing with a one time deposit, not rental. I work in a field where we track returnable containers. We have n free days, after which the longer you keep it, the more you pay. Eventually we may go get it. This has to be done for planning availability as someone else stated above. The number of kegs they require is based on sales and expected returns.

As soon as distributors switch from deposit to rental with set free days, this will cease to be a grey area. The more people keep or illegally purchase kegs, the more likely this becomes. It's entirely likely the brewery pays some type of rental, especially the smaller ones. Companies like kegcraft.com manage this for them. If that is the case, they are paying rental for you to keep it, and that is stealing, from multiple parties.

Google "RFID tracking kegs", and you'll see how big an issue this is in the industry.
 
I do understand the point that you (pelipen) have made and I even agree with you. I have chosen not to use the kegs for my own brews. My original post was made because I was sure that there was a reason other people didn't exclusively use sanke kegs that they had gotten and emptied, I just couldn't come up with what it was. I initially responded by defending myself not so much because I felt strongly about it, but because it was just my natural response to being told I was stealing from the breweries (in those words). I now better understand the issue from the perspective of the breweries and have chosen NOT to use them. As I stated in my initial post, my problem wasn't with the replies that I received but with how a few people felt the need to declare me a thief and tell me how I was causing financial difficulty for the breweries. I suppose the argument could be made that such strong words made me see the light, but I was hoping for a friendly venue to field my questions and am confident that I would have made the same conclusion had the conversation remained friendly. In simpler terms, I wish they hadn't felt the need to be jacka**es to get their point across.
 
Beyond the moral questions (which are easily put to rest by buying new or refurbished Sankeys) I think they are a fine way to keg your beer. I use them exclusively. A new Sankey sixtel doesn't cost much, if any, more than a new corny and I suppose it stands to reason that a refurbed one wouldn't cost much, if anthing, more than a refurbed Corny but I could be wrong about that. The main advantage I see is that, presuming you buy US Sankey only, there is only one connector you need to have and that is sold by any bar supply house in any town that has one. The down side is the cleaning. You can't get your hand down that hole after you've taken the spear out so that you need to fiddle with brushes or come up with a high pressure pump and use CIP techniques to clean them.
 
Beyond the moral questions (which are easily put to rest by buying new or refurbishes Sankeys) I think they are a fine way to keg your beer. I use them exclusively. A new Sankey sixtel doesn't cost much, if any, more than a new corny and I suppose it stands to reason that a refurbed one wouldn't cost much, if anthing, more than a refurbed Corny but I could be wrong about that. The main advantage I see is that, presuming you buy US Sankey only, there is only one connector you need to have and that is sold by any bar supply house in any town that has one. The down side is the cleaning. You can't get your hand down that hole after you've taken the spear out so that you need to fiddle with brushes or come up with a high pressure pump and use CIP techniques to clean them.

I too think sankeys are a superior system, and the only thing that's prevented me from converting my entire fleet is that I can fit 4 corny kegs in my keezer, but only 3 sankey sixtels. As for the price difference, my experience has been that used corny kegs cost less than half the price of legally obtained used sankeys. I'm sure this varies dramatically based on location though.
 
So to get past the moral debate, I built my keezer well before I started homebrewing. The micro in my town preferred if us kegerator owners bought our own kegs and had them fill them. For this, they gave us a smoking deal on them, about $60 IIRC. Any how , I'm now filling my sanke kegs.

To accomplish this, I gutted one coupler of all check valves, and hook my racking tube directly to the gas side. When the beer flows through the liquid side, kegs full. This saved me from having to repurchase kegs and couplers.
As for cleaning, I have a 2 head cleaning keg that I pressurize from one side, and hooked the other end to the keg I want to clean. Had to switch some lines around through the process, but it seems to work. Also, since they are not stolen kegs, I've convinced the owner of the local micro brew to start cleaning them for me when he cleans his. This means I don't have to disassemble them ever.

Works for me.
 
To accomplish this, I gutted one coupler of all check valves, ....

This reminded me. Micromatic sells stainless valves that screw on to the gas and liquid ports on a Sankey (or any other) coupler. After you have taken the 'pea' and gas check rubber thingy out put a valve on each of these ports. You now have a 'universal' coupler. It can be used to draw beer. It can be used to fill a keg. It can be used during CIP cleaning and for steam sterilization if you use that. It can also be used for spraying beer on the ceiling if you get careless about checking valve positions before setting the coupler into the keg when no liquid line is attached.
 
What if I bought a 15.5 sanke of bigfoot and planned to drink it over the next 5 years? Is that stealing? The brewery has to know that there will be a variation in the number of kegs that are out in service. This should account for a very small number of home users who keep the kegs a lot longer than bars do. There's no time limit written on the agreement in my area. The last agreement I had did not say that I couldn't fill it with my own brew several times, or disassemble the spear to clean it.
 
As noted in an earlier post you are stealing 'demurage' and in so doing you are hurting the brewery which does do a calculation as to the average retention time in determining the number of kegs it buys and this is a major expense as SS is so high these days (apparently because most of it goes to China). If everyone kept kegs 5 years as opposed to the typical one month (if that's the number) the brewery would need 60 times more kegs.

You will have to rely on your moral compass to direct you as to what to do here. Unfortunately the 'me first' generations don't seem to have much of one.
 
Getting away from philosophical arguments and back to practicality.... has anyone found good, legal sources for buying sanke kegs, preferably in the 1/4 and 1/6 size? I only have found Geemacher and Gopher Kegs for new kegs. I haven't found any legit sources for reconditioned kegs.
 
Getting away from philosophical arguments and back to practicality.... has anyone found good, legal sources for buying sanke kegs, preferably in the 1/4 and 1/6 size? I only have found Geemacher and Gopher Kegs for new kegs. I haven't found any legit sources for reconditioned kegs.

Best bets for legally obtaining used/reconditioned kegs are likely your local breweries, the classifieds section of pro-brewer.com, or sabco.
 
If a brewery has decided that a keg is to be junked, I think it would likely be too messed up to safely/reliably keg in.

Breweries sell perfectly good kegs all the time, often to each other. Sometimes they are trying to keep a uniform keg style, and will sell anything they get back from the distributor that's different. They also will get rid of kegs if the chimes get badly dented, even if the keg is still perfectly functional otherwise. I know of a few breweries who are trying to get their entire fleet rfid enabled, and are selling any kegs they get back that don't have rfid chips. If a keg truly is junk, breweries typically send it to the junkyard rather than trying to sell it.
 
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