Electrical Safety.

I just wanted to post a few basic electrical safety items. The National Electical Code (NEC) has a zillion rules and exceptions, 772 pages worth, so i am not going to get into to much depth. Most of the advise in here is spot on, i just weanted to clear up a few things.

First: GFCI must be used on all outdoor, garage, bathroom, kitchen, and basement outlets of any size. This is the single biggest safety item you can install. There are three ways to install a GFCI; Circuit Breaker, Outlet, and Plug-in. CB and outlets are installed permanently into your house wiring, Plug-in is portable, looks like a 2' extention cord with a little molded box in the middle. they can be found at RV supply and some home supply stores. How they work

Second: Grounding The purpose of grounding (Equipment Grounding) is to give stray currant a path back to the supply to facilitate the tripping of over-current or Ground fault devices. This simple mean that if there is a short, the equipment ground is the electrical path not you. everything metal that is connected to something electrical needs top be grounded.

Third: Over-Current Protection These are the devices that prevent too much electrical current from flowing through wires and equipment. NEC table 310.16 list how much amperage a given wire size can handle, you must have a fuse or circuit breaker at or smaller then that number. This mean if you supply your Brewery Control box with a 50amp 120/240v CB, and tap off a 120v 15a outlet for pumps or relays, they must have a 15a fuse/CB protecting them. This is to prevent that little 15a outlet and 14awg wiring from overheating do to a potential 50amp current. A GFCI will not prevent this! Edit: After talking to engineer(UL code), he stated that if you are using Heater elements hard wired or Cord and plug connected greater then 1500w, each element must have its own set of fuses, unless thermally protected.

I am an Electrcial Contractor in California, I do Industrial and Commercial work, so feel free to ask me anything related.

Great post. Don't screw around with electrical unless you know what you're doing. If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, or do A LOT of research and ask questions of people who do know what they are doing...aka lazybean .

lazybean said:

I just wanted to post a few basic electrical safety items. The National Electical Code (NEC) has a zillion rules and exceptions, 772 pages worth, so i am not going to get into to much depth. Most of the advise in here is spot on, i just weanted to clear up a few things.

First: GFCI must be used on all outdoor and garage outlets, of any size. This is the single biggest safety item you can install. There are three ways to install a GFCI; Circuit Breaker, Outlet, and Plug-in. CB and outlets are installed permanently into your house wiring, Plug-in is portable, looks like a 2' extention cord with a little molded box in the middle. they can be found at RV supply and some home supply stores. How they work

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They are also required in bathrooms, basements, and kitchen and dining room countertops. All of these areas, with the possible exception of bathrooms, are possible brewing areas, so if you brew with electricity, make sure the circuit you use is GFCI-protected.

Good post, BTW

The problem I see pointing people to table 310.16 is that I would bet most people do not no how to use it, much less know anything about derating and correction factors.

I could see someone looking at the table and not notice the * that points you to 240.4(D) which states that the maximum OCP shall not exceed 15A (with some exceptions of coarse)and assume 14AWG THHN is OK for 25A
Or 8AWG THHN is OK for 55A when most likely it is OK for 50A but may only be good for 40A if the terminations are rated for 60C.

Oh and that table doesn't even cover cords......

Thanks for posting that. I need to look into the over-current protection.

lazybean said:

Third[/B]: Over-Current Protection These are the devices that prevent too much electrical current from flowing through wires and equipment. NEC table 310.16 list how much amperage a given wire size can handle, you must have a fuse or circuit breaker at or smaller then that number. This mean if you supply your Brewery Control box with a 50amp 120/240v CB, and tap off a 120v 15a outlet for pumps or relays, they must have a 15a fuse/CB protecting them. This is to prevent that little 15a outlet and 14awg wiring from overheating do to a potential 50amp current. A GFCI will not prevent this!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the post. Sounds like I may be violating that rule. I have my control panel fed by 20 amp circuit. That feeds 1500 watt heater element in RIMS and 2 pumps plus a BCS control box. Are you saying that I need to have fuses on the pumps and control box and if so what size should they be as those devices are very low amp draw?

samc said:

Thanks for the post. Sounds like I may be violating that rule. I have my control panel fed by 20 amp circuit. That feeds 1500 watt heater element in RIMS and 2 pumps plus a BCS control box. Are you saying that I need to have fuses on the pumps and control box and if so what size should they be as those devices are very low amp draw?

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No, you do not, as long as you are using 12 gauge wire. It is the wire and the receptacles that the fuses/breakers are for, not the equipment that you are powering.

You do, however, need a disconnecting means for your element and pumps. A cord and plug is acceptable.

Good and timely information since I'm in the process of wiring my nanobrewery. Thanks for posting this.

samc said:

Thanks for the post. Sounds like I may be violating that rule. I have my control panel fed by 20 amp circuit. That feeds 1500 watt heater element in RIMS and 2 pumps plus a BCS control box. Are you saying that I need to have fuses on the pumps and control box and if so what size should they be as those devices are very low amp draw?

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in residential apps your amperage calculations shouldn't exceed 80% of branch circuit

residential wiring, a 14 gauge wire is not to exceed 15 amps. A 12 gauge wire is not to exceed 20 amps although both gauges can handle more amps.

so if you look at a 20 amp residential circuit, you would take the voltage, then multiply that by amps to give you watts.

20 * 120 = 2400 @80% 1920 watts max.

heating elements can be formulated at 100% of there load so 1500 watts

motor loads have to be calculated @ 125% of their amp draw

some of the march pumps we use are .7 amps so .7 * 120 = 84 watts * 1.25 = 105 watts x 2 motors = 210 watts.

1 element 1500w
2 motors 210w

1500 + 210 = 1710 watts

1920 - 1710= 210 watts under your maximum allowable load without the controller load??

are your pumps rated at .7 amps, and what is your controller rated at?

I struggled with how to account for three within my control box (in process).

I have 50 amps coming in to a distribution block, and then splits out to one 30 amp and several different 20amp circuits (which will not all run simultaneously).

how do i install over-current protection inside a control panel? I can't use conventional circuit breakers as i don't have a way to mount them?

sjlammer said:

I struggled with how to account for three within my control box (in process).

I have 50 amps coming in to a distribution block, and then splits out to one 30 amp and several different 20amp circuits (which will not all run simultaneously).

how do i install over-current protection inside a control panel? I can't use conventional circuit breakers as i don't have a way to mount them?

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You can run the hot wire taps off of the feed wire in the D box with split bolt connectors (bugs), then into a fuse holder, then to the equipment connection or switch. Rubber tape then electrical tape the bug connections.

you can install inline cartridge fuses or have a fuse holder, then buy the glass/ceramc 125vac fuses. Microwaves all have internal fuses in them.

here's one version of a fuse holder

Look up din rail mounted circuit breaker

McMaster-Carr has all the different type fuses and fuse holders.

We usually use fast-acting fuses for control power taps. Like fuse class ATM.

Bernie Brewer said:

They are also required in bathrooms, basements, and kitchen and dining room countertops. All of these areas, with the possible exception of bathrooms, are possible brewing areas, so if you brew with electricity, make sure the circuit you use is GFCI-protected.

Good post, BTW

Click to expand...

Great point, edited Post to include those

OLDBREW said:

in residential apps your amperage calculations shouldn't exceed 80% of branch circuit

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The dedicated small-appliance circuits in the kitchen have an exception. They can be run up to 100% for non-continuous loads.

It's also important to realize 120v is rarely 120v. It's more common to see 110v due to resistive line losses.

jkarp said:

It's also important to realize 120v is rarely 120v. It's more common to see 110v due to resistive line losses.

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that is usually from the type of transformers used by the utility company, different configurations give different Voltages. Were i live we have 110/220 as the common Voltage, yet on the other side of town they have 120/240 (and high legs on the commercial buildings)

The dedicated small-appliance circuits in the kitchen have an exception. They can be run up to 100% for non-continuous loads.

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That exception was removed in the 2005 code. (210.23(a)(1))

QUOTE=jkarp;1594213]The dedicated small-appliance circuits in the kitchen have an exception. They can be run up to 100% for non-continuous loads.

It's also important to realize 120v is rarely 120v. It's more common to see 110v due to resistive line losses.[/QUOTE]

lazybean said:

that is usually from the type of transformers used by the utility company, different configurations give different Voltages. Were i live we have 110/220 as the common Voltage, yet on the other side of town they have 120/240 (and high legs on the commercial buildings)



That exception was removed in the 2005 code. (210.23(a)(1))

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A dedicated small appliance circuit in a residential kitchen is a 20A circuit with a 15A receptacle so actually you can run at 100% of the receptacle rating....maybe that is what he was thinking.

I also think he was referring to the voltage drop you find in the lines from the transformer to the receptacle itself, there is no way to accurately measure this without a load on the circuit since voltage drop is directly related to the load applied.

lazybean said:

That exception was removed in the 2005 code. (210.23(a)(1))

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Disclaimer: I'm NOT an electrician, but I went over this in great detail with a licensed one prior to building my indoor electric brewing rig.

210.23 (A) thru (D) speaks to branch circuits with MULTIPLE outlets. In such a case, no single cord and plug appliance can exceed 80% of the branch circuit rating.

210.23, 1st paragraph SPECIFICALLY addresses a SINGLE outlet on an individual branch circuit. 210.23 says: An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated.

I have two such outlets in my kitchen - one for the garbage disposal and one for the microwave. I also have two 20A small appliance circuits, as per code. The two "dedicated" outlets indeed have 20A receptacles.

Depending where you are in the counrty(usa), the voltage can go from 110-208 to 125-250vac residental. Believe it or not, there is still four wire with ground 2 phase services in use.

where I'm at voltage at the recepticles are beteen 120-125 vac and up to 250vac at the service entrance for residential power.

We can not down rate the recepticles(15 amp) because of multi outlets anymore. If the branch circuit is 20 amps, the recepticles are 20 amp rated to match.

wihophead said:

I also think he was referring to the voltage drop you find in the lines from the transformer to the receptacle itself, there is no way to accurately measure this without a load on the circuit since voltage drop is directly related to the load applied.

Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why 120v is rarely 120v.

jkarp said:

Exactly. That's why 120v is rarely 120v.

Click to expand...

that's why they have tables for the distance a specific size wire can be use for the circuit

In a seven floor building you may have to start out using 10 awg thhn then junction and drop to a 12 or 14 awg wire for a 20 amp residential panel circuit.
120vac +/-10% is how they rate

If you ran a 20amp circuit at 20 amps load for a while in a residential panel, it would overheat the spring clip on the snap in breaker and burn out the breaker and probably hurt the buss bar. commercial/industrial panels use bolt in breakers for that reason.

BTW next time you are in one of the box stores ,try to stab a 12 wire into the back stablock a 15amp recepticle. Hmmmm how come it no longer will fit??

Never use the stab-locks. Always use the screws

wihophead said:

A dedicated small appliance circuit in a residential kitchen is a 20A circuit with a 15A receptacle so actually you can run at 100% of the receptacle rating....maybe that is what he was thinking.
.

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NEC Table 210.21(B)(2) 15a receptacle Maximum connected load of 12a. no exceptions.

NEC 210.21(B)(3) You can only install a 15a receptacle on a 20a circuit if there is more then one receptacle installed on the circuit.


I am going over some specs for a job right now, so i have the code book right next to me.

EDIT:

jkarp said:

210.23, 1st paragraph SPECIFICALLY addresses a SINGLE outlet on an individual branch circuit. 210.23 says: An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated.
.

Click to expand...

I re-read what you were saying. Yes a Single Outlet (not a Duplex)can be connected to a dedicated circuit at full rating.

I don't do much residential, so that is new to me! Thanks, always learning new stuff.

OLDBREW said:

BTW next time you are in one of the box stores ,try to stab a 12 wire into the back stablock a 15amp recepticle. Hmmmm how come it no longer will fit??

Never use the stab-locks. Always use the screws

Click to expand...

never a truer statement. I installed "Spec Grade" receptacles in my Garage, Kitchen and anywere else i plug in a lot. the stronger springs hold the plug so much better.

OLDBREW said:

that's why they have tables for the distance a specific size wire can be use for the circuit

In a seven floor building you may have to start out using 10 awg thhn then junction and drop to a 12 or 14 awg wire for a 20 amp residential panel circuit.
120vac +/-10% is how they rate

If you ran a 20amp circuit at 20 amps load for a while in a residential panel, it would overheat the spring clip on the snap in breaker and burn out the breaker and probably hurt the buss bar. commercial/industrial panels use bolt in breakers for that reason.

BTW next time you are in one of the box stores ,try to stab a 12 wire into the back stablock a 15amp recepticle. Hmmmm how come it no longer will fit??

Never use the stab-locks. Always use the screws

Click to expand...

+1000. Unless you like the idea of burning your house down.

lazybean; first off welcome to this great forum.
I must mention I was crucified long ago on this form when I started to speak about NEC Code, I was hammered many times about using the "NEC Code Book" as if it were a dirty word from my replies to what I replied on many postings on this forum.
Many of you fellow HBT forum members know it was a dirty the NEC word to you hence why I stopped with any replies and became silent long ago. I now just read about the different build projects. NEMA WP boxes WTF is that when the boxes are butchered up with receptacles sticking thru on posted pictures of the proudly built projects. Call me a dumb ass, I stayed away from dingbat work (residential) with 29 years as commercial mostly (80%) industrial work of 29 years as a IBEW member. VD (not that one), voltage drop with a long runs of 5.5 to 11KW heating elements what's that all about?
SO cord, also add this to the list not in the 310.16 section list as posted above, derated so true. Think about using SOOW cord and done properly? Then the two screw romex connectors installed with the locknut outside the box plus butchered NEMA WP boxes without the proper cords not CGB's in sight and without adding any cord grips on the cords. Mention to your homeowners fire coverage policy if they will pay for a burned down house caused by a illegal wiring practice by the do it yourselfer homebrewer? Screw the NEC CODE BOOK is about what I got as an answer for repling on this forum. I bet being certified for 12KV splicing is beyond many members also that I used for years always had me on demand. Best of luck with your code book replies and again welcome aboard lazybean.

Well this is an interesting thread. When we had a porch constructed, of course I put a GFCI in line with all the outlets out there, and when I installed a sump pump in the basement, put in a heavier 30 A model. I didn't know that they were required for all garage outlets. Built a garage two years ago, no GFCI. So....is there any way to have a central one, without installing one in each branch circuit?

rico567 said:

Well this is an interesting thread. When we had a porch constructed, of course I put a GFCI in line with all the outlets out there, and when I installed a sump pump in the basement, put in a heavier 30 A model. I didn't know that they were required for all garage outlets. Built a garage two years ago, no GFCI. So....is there any way to have a central one, without installing one in each branch circuit?

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NO. In order for a GFCI to properly protect people, they are designed for each branch circuit. "GFI main breakers" are differant, they are designed to protect equipment and are not sensitive enough to protect people


BrewBeemer- Happy to meet another IBEW brother. I am well familiar with the "we dont need no stinking code" mentality on the interwebs. I just try to inform those who wish to learn, and warn those doning something wrong.

OLDBREW said:

that's why they have tables for the distance a specific size wire can be use for the circuit

In a seven floor building you may have to start out using 10 awg thhn then junction and drop to a 12 or 14 awg wire for a 20 amp residential panel circuit.
120vac +/-10% is how they rate

If you ran a 20amp circuit at 20 amps load for a while in a residential panel, it would overheat the spring clip on the snap in breaker and burn out the breaker and probably hurt the buss bar. commercial/industrial panels use bolt in breakers for that reason.

BTW next time you are in one of the box stores ,try to stab a 12 wire into the back stablock a 15amp recepticle. Hmmmm how come it no longer will fit??

Never use the stab-locks. Always use the screws

Click to expand...

Run a 20amp circuit at 20 amps and in about 5 minutes the breaker will trip. Most breakers can take short spikes to their rated level before tripping but anything over 80% constant load will push the breaker past the trip point slowly. 40 amp load will trip it almost instantly.

Had a homeowner turn on every light, fan, and plug in a space heater, tv. on one circuit. she was pulling 14.5 amps constantly. the 15 amp breaker ran for a bit then popped.

rico567 said:

Well this is an interesting thread. When we had a porch constructed, of course I put a GFCI in line with all the outlets out there, and when I installed a sump pump in the basement, put in a heavier 30 A model. I didn't know that they were required for all garage outlets. Built a garage two years ago, no GFCI. So....is there any way to have a central one, without installing one in each branch circuit?

Click to expand...

Hit the first receptacle of each circuit in the garage if more than one in your garage, use the GFI's with downstream connections and run the rest of that branch circuit off it you will have all the other plugs GFI protected.
In the past with mentioning the 80% rule I was hammered as many brew builds they are at 93-97% and tell me what's the problem it's holding? Yeah right good luck hence why I became silent.
Nova5; all the dingbat work i've run across, neighbors and friends with 1886 thru 1940's homes converted to breakers long ago I have never run across screw in breakers just in commercial & industrial. Many wafer breakers with packed panels and a fire hazard rats nest yes. Best one I had to help a friends mom in a 1929 house with Edison fuses, behind the center screw in the socket were brass washers instead of the red insulating fiber washers, unscrew the fuses the whole house stayed lighted. Found in a neighbors garage a 1943 steel penny thay they gave me. They ran a 1 hp table saw with knob & tube in the air house to garage old original except the added penny. A good find, the penny that is. I hate residential the wife does not offer my services to people knowing what a POS you can get into. Zip cords in the attic or better yet speaker wire in walls to plugs. Love those old houses with switching the neutral years ago as well the left receptacle side hot, ground what's that with the house full of grounding receptacles on two wire? Nuff said.

Is it a code requirement to have conduit between the main panel and subpanel? The distance between the two will be about 10 feet.

leosastronomy said:

Is it a code requirement to have conduit between the main panel and subpanel? The distance between the two will be about 10 feet.

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It depends. if the cable is concealed in a wall, then Romex should suffice. If it is on the surface, then conduit is needed (in general). With out seeing it, i can not say for sure.

BrewBeemer said:

lazybean; first off welcome to this great forum.
I must mention I was crucified long ago on this form when I started to speak about NEC Code, I was hammered many times about using the "NEC Code Book" as if it were a dirty word from my replies to what I replied on many postings on this forum.
Many of you fellow HBT forum members know it was a dirty the NEC word to you hence why I stopped with any replies and became silent long ago. I now just read about the different build projects. NEMA WP boxes WTF is that when the boxes are butchered up with receptacles sticking thru on posted pictures of the proudly built projects. Call me a dumb ass, I stayed away from dingbat work (residential) with 29 years as commercial mostly (80%) industrial work of 29 years as a IBEW member. VD (not that one), voltage drop with a long runs of 5.5 to 11KW heating elements what's that all about?
SO cord, also add this to the list not in the 310.16 section list as posted above, derated so true. Think about using SOOW cord and done properly? Then the two screw romex connectors installed with the locknut outside the box plus butchered NEMA WP boxes without the proper cords not CGB's in sight and without adding any cord grips on the cords. Mention to your homeowners fire coverage policy if they will pay for a burned down house caused by a illegal wiring practice by the do it yourselfer homebrewer? Screw the NEC CODE BOOK is about what I got as an answer for repling on this forum. I bet being certified for 12KV splicing is beyond many members also that I used for years always had me on demand. Best of luck with your code book replies and again welcome aboard lazybean.

Click to expand...

NEC is about standardization, not safety, per se. It's an extremely important and useful document, but following NEC is not required for a safe design, and I'm pretty sure it's not applicable to brew rigs in any capacity (I could be wrong here, though). I'm not saying lots of DIYers don't do unsafe stuff with electricity, they do, but NEC code is not always the answer. Sometimes common sense is just as good (unfortunately, many people don't have common sense when it comes to those pesky little electrons).


EDIT: Also, regarding the insurance comment. My bet is even if your brew rig was wired completely to NEC, you still wouldn't get a payout if it caused a fire.

FWIW, my basement finish job was done by the book. I admit my brew-rig is not. My rebuild will actually use DIN mounted breakers and NEMA rated boxes, etc.

JKoravos said:

NEC is about standardization, not safety, per se.

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"NFPA has an Electrical Section that provides particular oppertunity for NFPA members interested in electrical safety to become better informed and to contribute to the development of the National Electrical Code and other NFPA electrical standards".

NFPA 70. This sure sounds like the NEC was designed as a minimum safety standard guideline to me. this reminds me the bickering between labor and management / electricians and engineers, hence why I made another mistake by adding a reply to this forums threads dealing with anything related with electrical. The floors all yours. Cheers bro a biers due with this one.

BrewBeemer said:

"NFPA has an Electrical Section that provides particular oppertunity for NFPA members interested in electrical safety to become better informed and to contribute to the development of the National Electrical Code and other NFPA electrical standards".

NFPA 70. This sure sounds like the NEC was designed as a minimum safety standard guideline to me. this reminds me the bickering between labor and management / electricians and engineers, hence why I made another mistake by adding a reply to this forums threads dealing with anything related with electrical. The floors all yours. Cheers bro a biers due with this one.

Click to expand...

Well, it is a safety code, but before there was an NEC people were using the safe practices that were prevalent in their area. NEC standardized the safe practices.

I'm just saying it's not the end all be all when it comes to safe electrical wiring and design.

BrewBeemer said:

lazybean; first off welcome to this great forum.
I must mention I was crucified long ago on this form when I started to speak about NEC Code, I was hammered many times about using the "NEC Code Book" as if it were a dirty word from my replies to what I replied on many postings on this forum.
Many of you fellow HBT forum members know it was a dirty the NEC word to you hence why I stopped with any replies and became silent long ago.

Click to expand...

Hey! who said you could get down? Get back up on your crucifix! j/k

The NEC is okay, but finding the effin information you need is a pain in the ass, and every rule seems to have an exception, with an exception to the exception and you have to jump back and forth through the whole damned thing.

My boss pulled out his copy of the Canadian equivalent. Holy cow, information is in one spot, logically arranged, and hardly an asterisk to be found. Screw the national health care, Im moving to canada for the electical code!

JKoravos said:

I'm just saying it's not the end all be all when it comes to safe electrical wiring and design.

Click to expand...

Uh, yes it is. Every state and local code starts with the NEC. They may tweak it some, but for the most part, it is the basis for all safe wiring and design. And that is exactly what makes it the "end all be all".

JKoravos said:

Well, it is a safety code, but before there was an NEC people were using the safe practices that were prevalent in their area. NEC standardized the safe practices.

I'm just saying it's not the end all be all when it comes to safe electrical wiring and design.

Click to expand...

The NEC was first established in 1897, essentially when electricity first went into public use.

I worked with some one on a NEC panel, and had a glimps into what goes on making the rules. It is all about Saftey.

As fore if the NEC applies to home brewer's setups, if any electrical equipment is not UL listed then it must conform to NEC and be built with UL listed components. I know first hand how these rules apply.

Just cause you think some thing your doing is "safe enough" doesn't mean you are smart enough to ignore the one book written for the sole purpose of electrical safety. To come to a place were people are looking for help with electrical installations and try to undermine two professionals trying to help them is just stupid and wrong.

The kicker is different cities and states can demand specs above and beyond the minimum standards set in the NEC code book. This can bite you in the butt trust me I got it once on a dingbat addition for a friend. On the phone "only NEC is needed" on inspection turned down by their special ways of crimping the grounds OUTSIDE THE BOXES (yeah accessible ya think?) then insulated ground wire into the plastic boxes. WTF is this?

Same old story...

Really not picking at one side or the other.... just the pecker measuring.