Back to Reinheitsgebot

I am beginning to question the additives I use during my brewing process. 5.2, campden tablets, whirlfloc/irish moss; could they be adding flavors to my beer that are doing more harm than good? I am seriously considering just carbon filtering my water, and letting the brew day ride.

I am wondering if anyone else has dropped all the additives and just gone back to making beer relying solely on good practices (hitting my brewday numbers, yeast health, fermentation temp control, sanitization).

I recall my first beer; a stove top mini-mash pale ale. My process stunk, but I liked it so much, probably because I couldn't believe I actually made beer. I am not enjoying today's beers nearly as much, and I do not know if it is because I have become a much tougher critic, or if all the additives I have picked up along the way are interfering with the process.

I would love to hear if anyone else has made this move back to Reinheitsgebot, and what they thought of their results.

Joe

jfowler1 said:

I am beginning to question the additives I use during my brewing process. 5.2, campden tablets, whirlfloc/irish moss; could they be adding flavors to my beer that are doing more harm than good? I am seriously considering just carbon filtering my water, and letting the brew day ride.

I am wondering if anyone else has dropped all the additives and just gone back to making beer relying solely on good practices (hitting my brewday numbers, yeast health, fermentation temp control, sanitization).

I recall my first beer; a stove top mini-mash pale ale. My process stunk, but I liked it so much, probably because I couldn't believe I actually made beer. I am not enjoying today's beers nearly as much, and I do not know if it is because I have become a much tougher critic, or if all the additives I have picked up along the way are interfering with the process.

I would love to hear if anyone else has made this move back to Reinheitsgebot, and what they thought of their results.

Joe

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Im the opposite. Ive refused to use additives. But im questioming that and want to work on a clearer beer. I dont think there is anything wrong with adding this stuff. If you want to stay true to an ancient beer law, then youll have to skip the yeast too.

How someone figured out to put isinglass in a beer, i dont know but theyve been doing it for ages so how wrong can it be?

That's true.....no yeast would make things difficult. The 1800's were a crazy time. Maybe my point was unclear.

I know that the law was really covered in BS, and a lot of it was due to taxation issues rather than really protecting the quality or "purity" of the product. I am not bringing this up because I want to emulate historic German practices. In fact, I think it is a good rule of thumb to avoid historic German practices.

I am equating this more to organic chicken. Eat an organic chicken, and eat one that has been pumped full of additives that were designed to make the process easier....the organic is typically better. Is homebrewing becoming the new factory farming?

Joe

Reinheitsgebot is just like religion. It serves as an important resource and standard in the absence of knowledge.

When that law was created, brewers were putting all sorts of things in their product and using up staples that were needed by the Bakers. It was sort of mediation attempt to divy up the grain resources of the country and make sure that brewers weren't throwing weird stuff into their brews.

That law has since been completely thrown out and any ingredient or additive used in any other food can be used in German brewing too. That law has no place in good brewing practice today. The only component of that law that holds true is that beer be made with water. We now know that perfectly good beers can be made with or without hops and barley.

You mention dropping all additives from your brewing. For the most part, those additives should be transparent in your beer flavor. But, I see you mention 5.2 Stabilizer in your list. That right there is probably the source of all your problems.

Over the past few years since 5.2 Stabilizer has been on the market, brewing water experts across the board have determined that this product is not well suited for brewing use. It DOES NOT do what it implies it does (keep the mash pH at 5.2). It does buffer the the mash pH to about an upper limit of 5.8, which only somewhat helpful. But adding 5.2 to your mash adds a bunch of sodium to your water and that is likely the problem with your beers.

You (and EVERY other brewer) needs to stop using the 5.2 product and learn to properly adjust your mash and water pH with simple acid additions. I understand that acids can be scary and its easy to overdo their addition, but there are tools out there to help the brewer understand and properly use acids. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING A BREWER CAN LEARN TO PRODUCE BETTER BEER.

Bru'n Water software is one tool that will help you to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. You can download it at the link in my signature line below.

Enjoy.

mabrungard said:

I understand that acids can be scary and its easy to overdo their addition, but there are tools out there to help the brewer understand and properly use acids. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING A BREWER CAN LEARN TO PRODUCE BETTER BEER.

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Hmmm, I said this in another thread and got laughed out of it. I'll be interested to see if people scoff at someone way smarter than myself.


_

I've never done a side by side comparison of organic chicken / non-organic. There isnt that much theyre allowed to do with a chicken anyway, and I prefer non-organic veggies. Half the organic stuff I see was half eaten by bugs (or still has bugs on it) and generally I don't buy the hype, or trust the sources. 80% of people think is organic is really just labeled as "natural" which is meaningless.... but enough of that, that's way OT.

Most of the things you're doing, you started doing to improve your beer, no? When you started adding additives was the intent to make it easier, or to make it better? I understand what you're saying, but I think in general, the things people put in their beer are because it makes the beer better, especially homebrewers.

Now if you were using hop extract and enzymes - then I'd begin to question if that's really going to make the best beer.

Also I have no experience with the 5.2 product.


But it sounds like you want a more "natural" product. Which has historically been my philosophy up until now, when I brewed a lager which has horrible chill haze.

I say go for it. See how you like it. For most beers I bet you wont notice a difference. I don't think that stuff is making your beer worse or less healthy. But I bet you would feel better about your product without it.

Thanks for that great answer.

The main thing I was looking to eliminate was the 5.2. I read through some things last night that said that people with ph meters tested its merits with less than stellar results. Even on the surface, it seems like there is something fundamentally wrong with throwing in a salt/buffer product when I knew nothing about my water chemistry to begin with. I was just flying blind. 5.2 will be introduced to the trash tonight.

Would you mind giving your thoughts on Campden tablets, whirlfloc, and maybe even fermcap (foam control) drops?

I have a really good quality carbon filter on my system, and chlorine was never something I picked up in my water to begin with. Should I consider dropping the campden tablets?

I became concerned with whirlfloc after hearing an episode of CYBI where JP added too much whirlfloc and without knowing it, Jamil picked up a seaweed quality in the final product. Should I chalk that up to user error and just continue using it. I use 1/2 a tablet at 5 minutes. I have been impressed with the clarity it seems to facilitate, but I am not obsessed with crystal clear homebrew.

Finally, how do you feel about silicone being added to the boil? Is it flavorless, or do you see it having any effect on the final product. I agree that it does a good job of preventing boil overs, but does it have any detractors?

Thanks,
Joe

I'm with ya on the 5.2 hate. I've never used it, but it's ridiculous to believe that a single product is the solution to everyone's brewing water across the world.

But I'd also like to add that I don't think we should look down on salt additions. It's ridiculous that adjusting your water is also not part of the Reinheitsgebot (isn't it?). Certain areas of the world have perfect water for perfect styles - why shouldn't we strive to emulate that?

As for fining agents, that's questionable to me. I can't imagine the minuscule quantities we use have any effect on the final flavor of the beer. But on the other hand, they're mostly used for aesthetic purposes, so if you're concerned about flavors and you don't mind an occasional hazy beer then you could leave this stuff out.

jfowler1 said:

I became concerned with whirlfloc after hearing an episode of CYBI where JP added too much whirlfloc and without knowing it, Jamil picked up a seaweed quality in the final product.

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Great episode... Shakespeare Stout I believe?

I really wouldn't worry about it - I think they used like 10x as much as they were supposed to... maybe more.

doctorRobert said:

I prefer non-organic veggies. Half the organic stuff I see was half eaten by bugs (or still has bugs on it)

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Did it ever occur to you that the bugs are preferential of organic foods for a reason? Namely that it doesn't contain chemicals that kill them? If it's not good for them do you think it is good for you?

but enough of that, that's way OT.

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Agreed.

TheSeether said:

Did it ever occur to you that the bugs are preferential of organic foods for a reason? Namely that it doesn't contain chemicals that kill them? If it's not good for them do you think it is good for you?

Agreed.

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I dont like to eat bugs, even organic ones. I can also wash the food, and some pesticides work on taste, not by killing them. Im not trying to live to a hundred here.

Gelatin, fermcap, etc is too much for me. That just sounds weird to me, and untraditional.

I like the RHG, althogh I’m not a fanatic follower. It’s nice how it sets rules for brewing German beer and requires the brewer to work on process rather than ingredients to improve the quality of the beer. Admittedly the line between what additives are essential for better beer quality and which are just shortcuts is rather blurred. In my brewing I like to minimize the use of those additives.

Here are a few notes about common additives:

- 5.2 mash stabilizer: doesn’t work anyway and you’re better off knowing some basic water and mash treatment options.

- whirlfloc/Irish moss: I uses to use it and after it fell behind the freezer chest one day I stopped using it and didn’t notice a difference. Later I found out that it is not RHG compliant. You may try the same and stop using it for a few batches. Make sure you are not also changing the base malt when you stop using this since increased haze can easily come from the type of malt you are using.

- fermcap: What are you trying to accomplish by reducing the Kraeusen? Just rig a blow-off and let the bitter Kraeusen blow-off. You’ll likely get a smoother and cleaner bitterness that way.

- Hop extract: This is actually RHG compliant since the resin is extracted with fermentation CO2. But don’t discount this product just because it is a more processed form of hops. Most likely your most favorite German beer is brewed with it. Because there is no vegetative matter, that can contribute tannins to the wort, hop extract can give you a smoother bitterness. I’m currently using HE in a pils and plan to do a side-by side between HE and high alpha bitter hops some time down the road. I recently bought a can of 54% AA hop extract.

- gelatin: I tend to use gelatin as a fix-up if a beer doesn’t want to clear up on its own. MO malt tends to give me this problem. It is not RHG approved.

- acids: the only RHG approved acid is Sauermalz or other lactic acid made from wort fermented with lacto from malt. But I also tend to use 88% LA if I want to acidify the wort and not just the mash. Phosphoric and other mineral acids are not allowed and not needed for German beer anyway.

Kai

doctorRobert said:

I dont like to eat bugs, even organic ones. I can also wash the food, and some pesticides work on taste, not by killing them. Im not trying to live to a hundred here.

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Now that that is settled, I am going to try to get this back on course.

The responses I got earlier about the uselessness of 5.2 were some of the most concise I have seen on this board over the past 2 years. Thanks so much for that.

Does anyone have anything similar to offer about fermcap or campden tablets?

jfowler1 said:

Thanks for that great answer.

The main thing I was looking to eliminate was the 5.2. I read through some things last night that said that people with ph meters tested its merits with less than stellar results. Even on the surface, it seems like there is something fundamentally wrong with throwing in a salt/buffer product when I knew nothing about my water chemistry to begin with. I was just flying blind. 5.2 will be introduced to the trash tonight.

Would you mind giving your thoughts on Campden tablets, whirlfloc, and maybe even fermcap (foam control) drops?

I have a really good quality carbon filter on my system, and chlorine was never something I picked up in my water to begin with. Should I consider dropping the campden tablets?

I became concerned with whirlfloc after hearing an episode of CYBI where JP added too much whirlfloc and without knowing it, Jamil picked up a seaweed quality in the final product. Should I chalk that up to user error and just continue using it. I use 1/2 a tablet at 5 minutes. I have been impressed with the clarity it seems to facilitate, but I am not obsessed with crystal clear homebrew.

Finally, how do you feel about silicone being added to the boil? Is it flavorless, or do you see it having any effect on the final product. I agree that it does a good job of preventing boil overs, but does it have any detractors?

Thanks,
Joe

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The only thing I use regularly is campden. My beer has a distinct chlorine/chloramine smell and it carries into my finished beer as off tastes. Campden has definately improved my beer. On occasion I will use fermcaps, since I ferment in corny kegs. Some beers I use it, some I don't. I have found no off tastes or differences between beers. It simply helps control the blowoff.

Other than that I noticed 5.2 didn't do anything, so I stopped using it. I also stopped using Whirlfloc, it did help clarity, but in the end better brewing techniques give me perfectly clear beer as well.

I wouldnt say its settled... jk

I was under the impression that the campden tablet releases from the water as some kind of sulfur. You can kind of see the water bubble a little. I dont think it leaves anything behind.

It has to be considered a must if you have chloramine in your water.

While I can appreciate the old German law for what it tried to do back then, I think the lofty standard that modern brewers hold it up to be is bogus. If you don't want all that stuff in your beer, don't put it in! Using this ancient law that was designed to keep wheat out of beer so the price of food wouldn't skyrocket doesn't mean that you make better beer than someone who puts wheat, or Spelt, or anything else in their beer.

I laugh when I hear it called a "Purity Law"! Yes, it did make some brewers take some bad things out of their beer. But honestly, today we can know what's bad for you and using that law as a golden standard is ridiculous.

Yes you can make a very clear beer without additives like Irish Moss (which is natural, by the way) and Gelatin (which is also natural, by the way), but takes care and patience.

As far as 5.2 goes, I have never used it. When I started worrying about my water, I did some research and started treating the water all around. Thinking that tossing in one product is going to fix everyone's water is also ridiculous! Everyone's water has a different chemical makeup. They should all be treated individually, if water treatment is your aim. Otherwise, the best beer you make might be only dark, or light, or hoppy, or malty (which is fine). Adjusting your water is probably not necessary for you to make good beer. But it might be necessary to make the best beer of any style you choose.

I have personally used FermS for foam control, back when I only had an inch of space to the rim of my boil kettle. I actually used Baby Gas Drops, whose main ingredient is one of the ingredients in FermS. It worked beautifully, and that beer scored 43.5 points at a large competition and went to BOS round. It settles out, and even if it didn't, I used 12 drops in five gallons, which is a very small fraction of the amount given to a very tiny baby.

Would I put it in just because?? No. I put it in because I was tired of having to sit there and keep one hand on the flame control and not being able to get a really good boil going. I liked the results so much that I used it right until I got a larger kettle. Now I would never use it, but I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to enjoy their brewday and/or starter making (also works great on boiling starters, and controlling foaming during fermentation!)

So add your stuff if you want to, don't if you don't. I think that most anything we put in our beer is going to be a natural ingredient, or at least not harm the beer in the end. Following the ancient law of Rheinheitsgebot (which did not cover all of Germany, BTW) is a noble and challenging method of brewing for some people. For others it's not a big deal to say, "This was brewed with Orange peel and Coriander!", or "It's a Raspberry Wheat. Germans would hate it!", or even, "Dogfish head's got NOTHIN on THIS pumpkin beer!"

The chloramine can't be removed by boiling or letting the water sit out overnight. Also, wine makers use campden all the time to kill yeast I believe. I don't see it as a bad additive if you need it.

If you don't need it, don't use it.

Kai,

Thanks for jumping in on this. I was hoping you would give your thoughts.

- Side note -
Kai has a great website. It is worth checking out just for the pretzel recipe. I also just listened to an interview you did about mash times and starch tests on BBR. Good stuff.

It sounds like the concensus is that I will not be doing much harm to drop all the additives, but I will benefit by exploring acid.

Any other input is still welcome, but I will certainly take the advice as given.

Thanks,
Joe

Im the opposite. Ive refused to use additives. But im questioming that and want to work on a clearer beer. I dont think there is anything wrong with adding this stuff. If you want to stay true to an ancient beer law, then youll have to skip the yeast too.

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I've tried every fining available and I've never noticed much effect from them. The only thing that's ever worked for me is a long (2+ months) cold crash.

The rhg in its modern form allows sugar in top fermented beer. Which of course would cover weissbier and koelsch as well!

They don't publicise that much though

No idea why. Maybe to allow Belgium and Britain to import and see it sold legitimately as beer?

To be honest though, all this allowing hop extracts and the like is all a bit shifty. I bet homebrew is more purist than most beer sold in Germany. Some of it is pretty poor while still claiming purity. Any one else tried Binding, as a case in point...

danlad said:

The rhg in its modern form allows sugar in top fermented beer. Which of course would cover weissbier as well!

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But not the Bavarian RHG, which is a bit stricter than the German RHG.

But you are correct that this has been added a while back.

Kai

http://sfwater.org/Files/FAQs/Removal_8_10.pdf

States that chlorimines can be removed with a 20 minute boil.

"Q: Can chlorine and chloramine be removed by boiling?
A: Boiling the water for 20 minutes will remove chloramine and ammonia"

This would remove the campden and the 5.2 removal was already well defined. This leaves the clarifiers.. You could always cold crash the beer for a few weeks. Would improve the clarity and likely the taste too.

One alternative I am looking into is using citric acid for removing the Chlora.. Seems a natural fit with the previous points related to 5.2. Guess I need to buy a Ph meter next.


Hey Kai, everything in Bavaria is more strict! Looking forward to your brezen recipe. Now I just need to find leberkase semmel and Augustiner clone recipes..

llama_boy said:

http://sfwater.org/Files/FAQs/Removal_8_10.pdf

States that chlorimines can be removed with a 20 minute boil.

"Q: Can chlorine and chloramine be removed by boiling?
A: Boiling the water for 20 minutes will remove chloramine and ammonia"

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This is contrary to just about anything I have read anywhere regarding chloramine. I am not doubting you here, that is a recent report and californians take that type of business seriously. So if true would be nice.

Anyway, I started using filtered tap water with camden tablets and my beer is significantly improved, this opposed to using spring / ro water.

I agree that water is a huge contributing factor for brew, even craft brews have a locality taste, sort of like new york vs chicago pizza dough. It is the water.

i don't add anything to my beer. it's worked out pretty well so far. that being said i also don't enter contests or anything. most of my beers come out pretty clear. my two cloudy beers were a wheat and a pumpkin ale, so thats kinda TBE. if i needed to add something to get it right or make it better i would, but for now i haven't had to so i don't see any reason to start (yet). oops i lied. i have added yeast nutrient to mead, and also to a recent batch, but just because i had some left over from the mead (both the recipes called for it anyway). but i think thats natural right?

camus said:

This is contrary to just about anything I have read anywhere regarding chloramine. I am not doubting you here, that is a recent report and californians take that type of business seriously. So if true would be nice.

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The more I have read the more contrary to popular and professional opinion these seems (removing Chloramides via boiling). Now I am focused on treating my brew water with Vitamin C or Hydrogen Peroxide before the carbon filter. Still doing the research but it looks like 3.5g of vitamin C or 23ml of 3% Peroxide for 10gals.

I understand a limited number of filters are approved from removing chlorine/chloramides. These have GAC (granulated activated charcoal) and typically have very slow flow rates (<.5gal/min). I figure the $0.02 in ascorbic acid or hydrogen peroxide is more effective and cheap. Then I can run the water through a filter for the organic compounds.

One interesting item I found, RO systems are not effective in removing chloramides..

Here is a good primer for dechlorination: http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-09012000-13030039/unrestricted/etd.pdf

doctorRobert said:

If you want to stay true to an ancient beer law, then youll have to skip the yeast too.

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Not true. The law was amended (not sure when) to include yeast.

I tweak the water. I guess that violates RGB. Other than that no additives.

llama_boy said:

One interesting item I found, RO systems are not effective in removing chloramides..

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This can be true for some RO membranes, but the typical home RO membranes will not tolerate any chlorine or chloramines since those compounds will destroy the membrane. Therefore, all home RO systems have an activated carbon prefilter to remove those compounds. You can rest assured that all RO water that you get out of a home or grocery store RO unit will be free of them.

llama_boy said:

TNow I am focused on treating my brew water with Vitamin C or Hydrogen Peroxide before the carbon filter. Still doing the research but it looks like 3.5g of vitamin C or 23ml of 3% Peroxide for 10gals.

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Depending on your source for H2O2 you get different additives for stabilization. Many of these stabilizers are metals that bio accumulate. Have fun drinking that.

There is clearly some ambiguity when it comes to water treatment under the RHG. The law states that the water used for brewing needs to meet drinking water standards. And you could make the argument that water treatment is not yet part of the actual brewing process. That water treatment could happen in a plant across the street. I may argue that this applies to the use of Camden tablets. Although a German brewery would not have this problem since they would receive chloramines free water.

The drinking water standard throws out the use of chalk unless you dissolve it since drinking water is not cloudy. Any &#8220;water treatment&#8221; that is done has to be done to the mash. The addition of salts and acids (other than Sauergut made from wort and lacto from malt) is not permitted in the kettle or mash tun.

I tend to argue that the RHG allows treatment of water as long as the resulting water meets drinking water standards. This means you can add gypsum and calcium chloride to the water but strike and sparge water has to be treated the same. Chalk would have to be dissolved with CO2 and I don&#8217;t exactly know how German breweries increase alkalinity when they want to brew very dark beers with really low alkalinity water. Maybe in the vast majority of cases they don&#8217;t have to.

I feel that I figured out how to comply with the RHG when it comes to building water but I don&#8217;t always feel compelled to do so and have brewed a number of Schwarzbiers and Dunkels with chalk that was not dissolved. I like dissolving the chalk though, especially since it becomes a bit more predicable in its pH behavior.

Kai

mabrungard said:

You (and EVERY other brewer) needs to stop using the 5.2 product and learn to properly adjust your mash and water pH with simple acid additions.

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+1,000,000

That stuff is an insult to our intelligence.

If someone wants to try an interesting experiment for naturally clearer beer. I would suggest that you get to the boil. Then start the boil once it is boiling, remove from heat and chill, then decant the wort off gently, then boil again as normal with normal hop additions, chill with a final gentle decant at the end. This is basically how to make clear ice cubes applied to beer.

Zamial said:

If someone wants to try an interesting experiment for naturally clearer beer. I would suggest that you get to the boil. Then start the boil once it is boiling, remove from heat and chill, then decant the wort off gently, then boil again as normal with normal hop additions, chill with a final gentle decant at the end. This is basically how to make clear ice cubes applied to beer.

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i think i get it. boil, chill remove wort from hot break, then boil as normal? interesting.

Zamial said:

If someone wants to try an interesting experiment for naturally clearer beer. I would suggest that you get to the boil. Then start the boil once it is boiling, remove from heat and chill, then decant the wort off gently, then boil again as normal with normal hop additions, chill with a final gentle decant at the end. This is basically how to make clear ice cubes applied to beer.

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Your hop utilization would be higher as well. Hop oils tend to cling to the break protein. It's been suggested that lower utilization with respect to gravity is actually a function of protein content and not the higher sugar content.

rycov said:

i think i get it. boil, chill remove wort from hot break, then boil as normal? interesting.

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Yes, but you are loosing much more than just break material. You would be loosing minerals and other "impurities". Like I said, that is the recipe for clear ice. I suspect it can be applied to beer. I have not tried it...lol, I use Irish moss. I just wanted to add this into the discussion as it seems no one has tried this and it may be a very valid technique to use vs. Irish moss...

I wish all of you "Purists" the best of luck!

mabrungard said:

This can be true for some RO membranes, but the typical home RO membranes will not tolerate any chlorine or chloramines since those compounds will destroy the membrane. Therefore, all home RO systems have an activated carbon prefilter to remove those compounds. You can rest assured that all RO water that you get out of a home or grocery store RO unit will be free of them.

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Thanks for the clarification. Maybe an RO unit is in my future.

llama_boy said:

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe an RO unit is in my future.

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Just note that if you use pure RO water you'll want to to add back in minerals and salts to rebuild your water for different brews.

Jawbox0 said:

Just note that if you use pure RO water you'll want to to add back in minerals and salts to rebuild your water for different brews.

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Yep, but I really like the idea of starting with a clean slate.

This has been a very useful thread, thanks.