PID controller help

My brother and I are looking to set up a top of the line RIMS system. We have already bought (and recieved :rockin a Blichmann 30 gallon mashtun with the Blichmann false bottom and sparge arm . Our isssue is coming in with the PID controller, what we want is to be able to do multiple steps within our mash amd have the pid controller be able to handle these steps on its own. What are we looking for here. Also if anyone knows what would it take to make this completely PC based ? and yes we are crazy

Check out the BCS
http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/

or the brewtroller
http://www.brewtroller.com/

+1 for brewtroller... feel free to ask if you have any questions about either. Lots of guys using both around here!

Stepping in a 30 gallon MLT may be much more like a ramp, a slow ramp... the problem is volume and flow rate.

The Brewtroller and BCS would both be nice. The BCS is a web based and can be made wireless, control. I dont know much about the BrewTroller.

This is my "control" box for my rig. It is 12 x 12 x 6 and can control 4 heating elements and 2 pumps. The antenna is from the wireless bridge, so I can control the BCS from my computer from anywhere I can get internet access.

I agree with Willy. Using a RIMS to step with that volume will be tuff. If you really see a need to step with that type of volume you will need to augment with direct heating. Out of curiousity what type of beers are you brewing to need to step mash. A RIMS is really just to keep your mash temperature regulated.

I don't really just brew a few styles I'm thinking of just trying a little of everything. I have read that usually only a single infusion mash is necessary but I still want to have the option of step mashing, is there anyway around supplementing with direct heat ?

Not really...

Mathematics are not on your side. You are limited by flow rate. Either direct heat, or infusions of boiling water.

We talked tonight and were thinking of combining a heating element with direct heating. We would be getting the nice 32 tip jet natural gas burners (with hood system of course as to prevent death) the thought is that this would be overkill. with the BTU's that the burner is putting out will a heating element really help the process of stepping/ ramping become faster or not even be worth the added equipment cost/ effort.

Also we decided to go with the BCS because its wireless, works with mac and looks cool on the computer screen

HollisBrewCo said:

Also we decided to go with the BCS because its wireless, works with mac and looks cool on the computer screen

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Well, it isn't wireless, it can be made wireless though, easy.

HollisBrewCo said:

We talked tonight and were thinking of combining a heating element with direct heating. We would be getting the nice 32 tip jet natural gas burners (with hood system of course as to prevent death) the thought is that this would be overkill. with the BTU's that the burner is putting out will a heating element really help the process of stepping/ ramping become faster or not even be worth the added equipment cost/ effort.

Click to expand...

Well, rated BTUs can be deceiving. A 100,000 BTU burner will only put about 20,000 - 25,000 BTUs into your kettle. They are very inefficient. Whereas a heating element would put 100% of its output to the wort. 3,414 BTUs per kW. So 7000W is equal to a 100,000 burner.

If you are getting a burner under the kettle as it is, why not just use that direct heat to heat the mash, forget the RIMS heater and use direct heat with recirculation? The RIMS would be redundant.

willynilly said:

Well, rated BTUs can be deceiving. A 100,000 BTU burner will only put about 20,000 - 25,000 BTUs into your kettle. They are very inefficient. Whereas a heating element would put 100% of its output to the wort. 3,414 BTUs per kW. So 7000W is equal to a 100,000 burner.

If you are getting a burner under the kettle as it is, why not just use that direct heat to heat the mash, forget the RIMS heater and use direct heat with recirculation? The RIMS would be redundant.

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Because if you are not careful scortching the mash is a real issue. A RIMS system is automation in a rudimentary form. Maybe he doesn't want to babysit the mash process and is looking for precise temperature control.

Cant you measure the outlet temp? Have that tied to your burner control? Isn't that what a Brutus 10 does? Those seem pretty successful. I don't see anyone babysitting their Brutus 10's. Lonnie has quite the following, OP, you should check this out, I don't think it is as difficult as Guy made it sound.

willynilly said:

Cant you measure the outlet temp? Have that tied to your burner control? Isn't that what a Brutus 10 does? Those seem pretty successful. I don't see anyone babysitting their Brutus 10's. Lonnie has quite the following, OP, you should check this out, I don't think it is as difficult as Guy made it sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCVsoULzCyg

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In that respect you are correct. Lonnie's system works very well. It's just a different way of control. It's not difficult at all if running under PID control.

so with the size mash tun i have is there anyway for me to stay away from boiling water infusions ? whats the most efficient way to heat my wort while still having a the flexibility in mash schedules that i am looking for.

Even if you have a 15 gallon MLT and mash, you are still not looking at step mashing, truely, with any sort of recirculating method.

Aside from boiling water infusions, you could do decoction mashing, but that another beast altogether.

How fast do YOU want to step mash? This may help. 5 minutes from say 122 to 150? 10 minutes?

With highly modified malts, conversion happens so quickly that delaying steps will change the profile of the beer.

Aside from boiling water, decoction or steam infusion, I am at a loss.

thanks for the advice willy, i think what I'm going to have to do is be satasfied with adding some boiling water additions with RIMS circulation to help keep my steps at their target temps. I'm in the middle of a remodel (maybe this should be a new thread) and im envisioning a 3 tier system so boiling water infusions should be easy, thanks again

No problem

HollisBrewCo said:

so with the size mash tun i have is there anyway for me to stay away from boiling water infusions ? whats the most efficient way to heat my wort while still having a the flexibility in mash schedules that i am looking for.

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Willynilly is exactly on point. He is giving you excellent advice. Look, I am probably gonna get crucified for this rant but what the hell. If you are going to use domestic malts, there is a 99% chance you will never need to step mash. It is important to understand why a protein rest is needed before you go crazy trying to figure how to do it. I wrote an informational post "https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/malt-modification-how-read-malt-analysis-sheet-143252/" so that brewers new to all grain brewing understand a little about the malt you will use to brew with. What it boils down to is 99% of all domestic malts available to homebrewers are fully modified and do not need a protein rest. As a matter of fact a protein rest with a fully modied malt could lead to a brew that has very little body. If you read Palmers "How to brew", it will verify this fact. If you plan on buying European Malts it is another story because they are notorious for being undermodified and benefit from a protein rest but keep in mind there are domestic versions of european malts that are fully modified.

The message is simple. Before youi go crazy worring about step mashing be sure there is even a need to persue it. Most of the beers we brew as homebrewers will work using a single infusion mash. Is it worth the time and aggrevation trying to figure out how to step mash a large brew when you will only need to use this mash technique 1% of the time?

The last piece of information is the Malt Analysis Sheet. This document will tell you exactly what you are dealing with when it comes to specific malt. Best of luck to you.

Well said.....

AWESOM post saw dust guy, I'm going to go with RIMS circulation to hold temp, after reading your post I'm not worried about step mashing but with my current idea ie. 3 vessel 3 tier system I should will have the flexibility to do any mash I want be it using domestic or European malts. Joining was the best $25 i spent on brewing to date