Alt ideas...

i think i want to try an alt next week. i've haven't done one all grain yet, only when i did extract/grain brews. i've been looking at some reference recipes, and some call for 100% munich malt, and some have munich, special b, carahell dark, melanoidan malt, etc. i plan on going all Spalter Spalt hops for this one @ 60, 15, 0 w/ 1 oz at each addition. any ideas on which way to go for the grain bill???

i'll either do a step infusion or a decoction for this one too.....

I'll be in the same boat soon. When I did my extract/partial No Fault Alt last year, I found this article from BYO and I kept it around as a reference. Maybe it'll help.

i have the same issue too. another one i looked at in BYO was by Horst Dornbusch called Cool Alt. he's the one that uses 100% Munich and all Spalt hops. need to re-vsist the article you mentioned....

I think I'm going to base my recipe on the Sly Fox in that BYO article. I used nothing but Saaz last time and plan to do that again, but that's just a personal thing. Spalt would be more true to style.

I just kegged the Fall Alt from November '05 BYO. I call it the Ive fallen, Alt I cant get up.

Beermaker said:

I just kegged the Fall Alt from November '05 BYO. I call it the Ive fallen, Alt I cant get up.

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i forgot about that issue too! damn you guy's are good

Beermaker said:

I just kegged the Fall Alt from November '05 BYO. I call it the Ive fallen, Alt I cant get up.

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did u use the European Ale or the German Kolsch/Alt yeast?

If you're going to do a decoction you won't need to use any melanoidin malt since it basically simulates a decoction. Having said that, I've found it to be a very tasty malt.

yea, i just re-vamped my recipe. i cut the melanoidin, and added some carhell and some carafa chocolate. pretty much the grain bill from the BYO Jan '02 issuse, except i'm going 100% spalt hops:


Spalty Alt
SG=1.062 ibu=41.3 SRM=16.4
8 lbs. German Pilsner malt
2 lbs Munich malt
1 lb Carahell malt
1.25 lb CaraMunich malt 60
2 oz Carafa Chocolate malt
1 oz Spalter Spalt hops @ 60
1 oz Spalter Spalt hops @ 15
1 oz Spalter Spalt hops @ 0
Wyeast German Ale yeast w/ a 1300 ml starter (or bigger)

either a single decoction mash or step infusion, w/ a 90 min boil.

DeRoux's Broux said:

did u use the European Ale or the German Kolsch/Alt yeast?

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I used the White Labs German Kolsch/Alt yeast and will again.

Here is what I found when I did some research for my Alt some time ago:

Yeast:
Wyeast 1007 (German Ale) is not an Altbier yeast. I came from Cologne and may be better suited for a Koelsch style beer. Wyeast 1338 (European Ale) is better suited since it das not attenuate as well and leaves more of a malty note and more sweetness which is desired for an Alt.

Another consideration is WL American Hefeweizen. Supposedly this strain came from Widmer who got it from the Uerige, a Altbier pub in Duesseldorf. This would be the most authentic if it is true. I still have to do more research on this.

Hops:
Duesseldorf style Altbeers don't have hop flavor or aroma. I only used bittering hops. But I still have to find some imported Altbeers to compare.

grains:
here are some grain bills from german receipe sites:

1.00kg Pilsener Malz (3 EBC) - pilsner
2.50kg Münchner Malz (20 EBC) - munic
0.50kg helles Weizenmalz (3 EBC) - light wheat
0.02 kg Farbmalz (1400 EBC) - black patent might work

[SIZE=-1]4 kg dunkles Münchner Malz (z.B. Typ II Weyermann) - dark munich
0,5 kg Melanoidin Malz (ebenfalls Weyermann)
90g Spalter Hopfenpellet mit 4,8% alpha-Säure[/SIZE]


1,5 kg Pilsener Malz, - pilsner
2 kg Wiener Malz, - vienna
500 g Weizenmalz, - wheat
500 g Karamelmalz (120EBC), - carmel
50 g Hopfen "Hallertauer Perle" (6,4%, Rohhopfen), - hops

Hope that helps.

I will do more research when I'll be making an Alt again.

let me know if you need more translations
Kai

Kai said:

Wyeast 1007 (German Ale) is not an Altbier yeast. I came from Cologne and may be better suited for a Koelsch style beer. Wyeast 1338 (European Ale) is better suited since it das not attenuate as well and leaves more of a malty note and more sweetness which is desired for an Alt.

Hops:
Duesseldorf style Altbeers don't have hop flavor or aroma. I only used bittering hops. But I still have to find some imported Altbeers to compare.

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interesting? here's Wyeast's description of their web page:

1007 German Ale Yeast.
Probable origin: Dusseldorf, Germany
Beer Style: Alt beer, American style wheat beers
Commercial examples may include: St. Stan Alt, Schlosser Alt, Frankenheim Alt, and Pinkus Alt
Unique properties - True top cropping yeast, low ester formation, broad temperature range affects styles. Will ferment cold; 55° F range, (13° C) producing lager characteristics including sulfur production. Style is noted for dry, crisp characteristics. Fermentation at higher temperatures (70-75° F, 21-24° C) may produce some mild fruitiness. Extremely poor flocculating yeast, generally remains significantly in suspension without treatment or filtration. Pad filtration is often difficult. Brewer's benefit from DE filtration or centrifuging. Maturation: Beers mature fairly rapid, even when cold fermentation is used. Low or no detectable diacetyl, alcohol tolerance approximately 11% ABV. Flocculation - low; apparent attenuation 73-77%. (55-68° F, 13-20° C)

the Wyeast will ferment cooler than the White Labs (about 7 degrees lower for optimum) therefore producing less esters. and all i have read is that the prefered hop in Dusseldorf is the Spalter Spalt hop, with an IBU range of 25-45.

now, i've never been and i don't claim to be any kind of expert on Alt or German brews, but it just contradicts all i have read and heard about alt's. even from Horst D. Dornbusch (a German brewer) of BYO fame.....

just trying to learn more

DeRoux's Broux said:

now, i've never been and i don't claim to be any kind of expert on Alt or German brews

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I don't claim to be an expert either. This is just something I came across when I researched my attempt on an Alt and this discussion will only help me in getting more information on this.

I also cannot remember how an Alt is suppose to taste. I still have to find one hier in the US. But I can certainly see, that a clean fermantation, which you will get from 1007, may not be desired for the more rustic style Altbeer.

I'm also unable to find an english text that claims that 1007 is not an Alt yeast. This means I'm basing my claim on only one article that I found on a german brewing site. I have to ask on the german brewing board what they think about 1007 vs. 1338.

here is another link I came across:
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/2827.html#2827-3

Kai

yea, the more info the better. i just kept reading that the Wyeast would not produce the esters/fruity profile to allow the malty character to come through, finished by the spalt aroma and bitternes.

thanks for the link!

according to that recipe in the link figured on promash, that's over 60 IBU's! too much..... grain bill is not that much different than my original. just munich, carahell, and spalt hops....

I'm not sure anout the IBUs, but 60 would be way to much. I would have to check and see what the boil time was. I'd adjust the IBU to taste or according to the style guidelines/other receipes.

Yes, I figured that the grain bills are very similar. This is good.

it was a 90 minute boil. other than that, it's pretty close (and the yeast difference). i still have a couple days before i hit the HBS, so there's plenty of time for me to change my mind and screw everything all up! ;~)

Kai said:

... I also cannot remember how an Alt is suppose to taste. I still have to find one hier in the US. ... Kai

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If you can, try and find a Pinkus Alt;a lot of larger liquor stores carry it. IMHO, it is the 'standard' German alt. For a real treat, look for Uerge's Sticke Alt. It comes in a distinct bottle that is tall and skinny at the top. Again, some larger stores carry it. It is a bit sweeter and stronger in ABV than most examples.

The only American example I can think of is Schmalz Alt from August Schell Brewing in New Ulm, MN. It's good, but not in the same league as the true German Alts, IMHO.

that Sticke Alt is like a "private reserve" if i remeber right? that's why it's a bit higher ABV and darker.

i noticed Alaskan Brewing Co. has an Alt, w/ an IBU of 18, and Abita Brewing had an Alt for their special beer back in August before Katrina hit....

DeRoux's Broux said:

that Sticke Alt is like a "private reserve" if i remeber right? that's why it's a bit higher ABV and darker....

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Something like that, I guess. Sam's Liquors usually has some bottles of it on the shelf here, so how 'private' can it be? It is good!

Rhoobarb said:

Something like that, I guess. Sam's Liquors usually has some bottles of it on the shelf here, so how 'private' can it be? It is good!

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i went back and grazed through that link you posted from the jan 02 BYO, and it mentioned that the Sticke was like a special casked alt, or private reserve....sumting like dat

i don't know why we can't get any of that down here? (the Pinkus)

Here's more info on Schmaltz' Alt. Maybe you can find it there, maybe not!

Roo,

Thanks for the tips. I'' keep my eyes open.

I also love your signature. It's so damn true.

DRB,

I asked on a german Homebrewing board and was assured that Wyeast 1007 should be used. Next time I will use this one too.
In case you don't have it already, here is a clone receipe for an Alt from the Uerige: http://www.brew-monkey.com/recipes/html/zumuerigeclone.htm
It seems to be quite bitter indeed. But no aroma or flavor hops.

The Uerige is using Weyerman malt exclusively in case you care.

Kai

Kai said:

DRB,

I asked on a german Homebrewing board and was assured that Wyeast 1007 should be used. Next time I will use this one too.
In case you don't have it already, here is a clone receipe for an Alt from the Uerige: http://www.brew-monkey.com/recipes/html/zumuerigeclone.htm
It seems to be quite bitter indeed. But no aroma or flavor hops.

The Uerige is using Weyerman malt exclusively in case you care.

Kai

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cool stuff, thanks Kai! i'll do some snoop'n on the link :cross:

Rhoobarb, i doubt i can get the August version, but funny storry behind the name. Beat's Rat Alt!

Total noob question here.. but I recently brewed up a German Alt from Northernbrewer.com hoping to find a copy of my fav Franknheim Alt from Duesseldorf.

One problem I run into is the ferment and bottle times. Not having done much more than follow the recipes provided, I'm getting conflicting comments on how long to do each stage.

The primary fermentation is simple.. but how long to leave in the secondary fermenter and then in the bottle is what has me.

The kit says "ready in 4-6 weeks" - I assume that means bottling time? I haev people telling me an Alt beer should be in the bottle much longer. I have some telling me to leave it in the secondary as long as possible... others saying its not all that important.

Any suggestions on how to make my secondary and bottling times less than a guessing game? Especially for my most recent alt.

Thanks.

gopherhockey said:

Any suggestions on how to make my secondary and bottling times less than a guessing game? Especially for my most recent alt.

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I'd go with 1wk in the primary and 2wks in the secondary. By that time the beer cleared nicely but you still have enough yeast in suspension to carbonate it within 2 to 3 wks.

Kai

I like the idea of throwing some Carafa II in the Alt. I had a friend who recently brought back some Vetters 33 from Germany, which seems like a doppelbock to me (in strength) but I have seen some sites classify it as an Alt. Me, I guess I would classify it as an Alt Barleywine. I'm going to try a go at it with my tastebuds alone -- I remember it as a very dense, syrupy brew with hints of smokiness and toffee. Specialty Malts, alone:

4 oz. Carafa
8 oz. Br. Chocolate Malt
1 lb. Dextrin
12 oz. CaraMunich

I haven't played with the latter much, the beers where I've used it for the first time are still lagering.

I was asking the yeast stain question on a German home brewing board and here is what I got. One of the guys there (ClaudiusB was so kind and actuallu contacted Wyeast and Widmer):

WYeast:
Jess Caudill, Brewer/Microbiologist, Wyeast Laboratories, (541) 354-1335:
"Wyeast 1007 is Uerige Altbier yeast and not WYeast 1010"
regarding American Hefeweizen strain being the one from Widmer:
"Considering Widmer is one of our customers, their strain information is propriatary and we do not give that information out. You can call Widmer and ask them if they want to pass on the info on the origin of their strain."

Widmer:
Joe Casey, Assistant Brewmaster, Widmer Brothers Brewing Company,929 N. Russell St.,Portland, Oregon USA 97227 , ph 503-281-2437:

"I'm not familiar w/ with either of the Wyeast strains you mentioned. We do not purchase our Hefeweizen yeast from Wyeast, though it's possibly they, or any yeast vendor, either have it or something similar to it. If you're dead set on using the exact same yeast we do I'd recommend purchasing some Widmer Hefeweizen and culturing the yeast from the beer. Both our draft Hefe and bottled Hefe have plenty of live yeast in them."


I hope Widmer is bottling with their primary fermantation strain.

Kai

so are we talking hefe of alt here?

German Kolsch/Alt yeast

Beermaker said:

German Kolsch/Alt yeast

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i just didn't see where they went from alt's to hefe's. i didn't know if they were saying to use a hefe for an alt, which makes no sense to me.

DeRoux's Broux said:

i just didn't see where they went from alt's to hefe's. i didn't know if they were saying to use a hefe for an alt, which makes no sense to me.

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The Widmer Hefeweizen is brewed with an Alt yeast strain. This is why it doesn't taste like a German Hefeweizen at all. And I actually enjoy this taste a lot, though I still prefer traditional Hefes. In Summer 2003 this was my favorite beer.

Initially the Widmer brother started out making an Alt. But none, except them, liked the style of an alt and to save the brewery they decided to try a Hefeweizen with their Alt yeast strain. Bingo, Widmer Hefeweizen was a uge success and the style became American Hefeweizen. On the Bottle they claim that the yeast styain they are using is from the Uerige.

Kai

thanks for clearing that one up! makes sense, and sounds kinda good too....

Rhoobarb said:

I'll be in the same boat soon. When I did my extract/partial No Fault Alt last year, I found this article from BYO and I kept it around as a reference. Maybe it'll help.

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After reading this article, it sounds like a cold lagering period is required for a true alt. Has anyone went through with the making any of these alts withOUT the cold lagering period? I'm curious to your results, any tips for making an alt. I recently bought my dad some UerigeSticke Alt and I had one. It was one of my favorite brews I've ever had. Not to mention I have the funky grolsch like bottles they came in to use in my bottling. I'd like to try to clone this beer and see a receipe on the Rhoobarb's link, I'm just curious how other's alts have turned out.