To enzyme or not to enzyme? Pectin

NOTE TO MODERATORS: NOT TRYING FOR A DISTILLATION TOPIC, JUST CITING WHERE I GOT MY INFO. TO OTHER MEMBERS: PLEASE NO DISTILLING TALK.
So after reading up on the distilling forums (The methanol topic comes up a lot there) and some of the stuff I read on here, it had become apparent to me that pectin enzyme actually INCREASES methanol levels after fermentation. So I'm curious... could I get my cider to clear without pectin enzyme and just cold crashing and racking? Or is the pectin enzyme that vital to clearing?

Methanol is not produced in anywhere near significant levels during fermentation even when a pectic enzyme is used. But if you insist then I suggest you do some research on 'fining agents' or get/make a filter.

I know not enough to be dangerous, but you can certainly feel the difference between a night drinking wine or cider vs. drinking good vodka or whiskey. Just looking at the reports about cider and wine giving worse hangovers and thinking of ways to make my cider less like the norm.

if you start with clear juice from the store it will clear just fine after fermentation (if you dont heat it!!). it'll take a month or more and a racking or two. fresh pressed, natural stuff might not without pectic enzyme

Pectin enzyme doesn't increase methanol in any meaningful amount. It's the distillation process that does that, which increases what little methanol is in the wine.

Methanol is a very minor issue with wine and cider, and if you drink enough cider to have methanol issues, you'd be dead of alcohol poisoning (strictly of the ethanol variety) before that could happen.

And actually, it's the reverse that seems to be true- pectic enzyme added to the fruit would break up the pectin meaning less would be in the final volume, so the methanol should be DEcreased by that logic.

I only use pectic enzyme when I've boiled fruit to add. If it's straight up cider, and you only warm it to add sugar (keeping it under 120*) I simply rack. You'd be surprised what racking can do to clear it. Do a tertiary racking, and you should end up with pretty darn clear cider, it takes a little longer, but I make ciders that take at least 3-5 months to bottle anyway.

Yooper said:

Pectin enzyme doesn't increase methanol in any meaningful amount. It's the distillation process that does that, which increases what little methanol is in the wine.

Methanol is a very minor issue with wine and cider, and if you drink enough cider to have methanol issues, you'd be dead of alcohol poisoning (strictly of the ethanol variety) before that could happen.

And actually, it's the reverse that seems to be true- pectic enzyme added to the fruit would break up the pectin meaning less would be in the final volume, so the methanol should be DEcreased by that logic.

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The way I have had it explained to me, the pectin is not actually the source of methanol, but what the pectin breaks down into, notably by pectin enzyme.

That being said, I did some more research and found that the difference in methanol levels between cider with enzyme and without enzyme is very minute. One guy on the distilling forum specialized in making brandy (especially apple brandy when apples are in season) and he said he couldn't tell any difference between how much heads (high alcohols like methanol) he collected with cider he cleared with enzyme and cider he neglected to use enzyme on and didn't even allow to clear.

With that info, I think we as cider makers can be pretty certain that enzyme or no enzyme, we wont be able to tell the difference anyway. So I'm goin with the easier route to just add pectin enzyme.

What doesn't make any sense to me is why would a distiller want to clear the product before distilling anyway. The distilling process clears any substance to a clear liquid and leaves the rest behind. The color we see in hard alcohols is from aging in toasted oak barrells. When it comes right out of a still it's crystal clear liquid, even cider. I AM NOT DISCUSSING HOW TO DISTILL, THAT'S ILLEGAL!

The only reason I'd see in worrying about methanol and clearing the product is if you are FREEZE DISTILLING, which IS legal, not reccomended, and is a common thing to do with cider...a.k.a. apple jack. The problem with freeze distillation is you're not removing any undesireable substances and leaving behind ethanol (or rather, removing ethanol and leaving behind undesireable substances), you're just concentrating everything by removing water. By the way that can make you go blind...don't do it, even if it is legal...just drink your cider wine and be happy

I was also wondering why a distiller would want to clear a product . . .

Freeze concentration will not make you go blind and more than cider will, since the ratio of ethanol to methanol remains the same as in the original cider. The only difference is less water and overall volume. Before you have any issues with methanol levels the ethanol will have done you in as Yooper mentioned.

No, I was exaderating, going blind is an urban myth. What it can do to you by concentrating the mixture (making it easier for you to consume a lot more in a signifigantly less amount of time, not realizing you're completely hammered) is give you a splitting headache and increse your chances of alcohol poisoning. It's generally not reccomended.

Yea, I understand it wouldn't kill, but methanol levels is the reason for the difference in a wine or cider hangover vs. a light lager or hard liquor hangover, right? Or is it just all in my head that wine gives me POUNDING headaches in the morning if I over-indulge while whiskey just gives a minor hangover?

I think it's doubtful that methanol is the culprit, as already established, it's only present in minor amounts. Could be that you are more sensitive to sulfites than most other people. They tend to exist in higher levels in wine/cider than beer or distilled products.

^ now that I think about it, that sounds like a very likely culprit. Think a good, healthy yeast starter to minimize competition would make a sulfite-bomb unnecessary? And what about sorbate, does that have similar effects?

A nice healthy starter never hurts in my book. I've heard (unverified though) that the human body produces ~20ppm of SO2 naturally so maybe you could shoot for lower levels of sulfites. Alternatively you could try other preservatives like ascorbic acid to protect you cider while allowing for fermentation. Not sure about how sorbates reacts unfortunately.

So just throwing a few vitamin C tablets in there would have a similar effect as campden? If not, my campden tabs are 30ppm if I add one per gallon, so if I only add 2 to my 5 gallon batch, it would get me at 12ppm. Is that an effective dose for killing the nasties?

CodyA said:

So just throwing a few vitamin C tablets in there would have a similar effect as campden? If not, my campden tabs are 30ppm if I add one per gallon, so if I only add 2 to my 5 gallon batch, it would get me at 12ppm. Is that an effective dose for killing the nasties?

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No. Campden is not the cause of your headaches anyway. There are far more sulfites in a package of raisins than in homemade cider.

The cause could be fusel alcohols, if fermentation temperatures are not controlled, or if simple sugars are used.

The most likely cause is simply overindulgence, though.

Yooper and LeBreton might be onto something. Sulfites in wines have made me feel crappy...then again, so has overindulging. Not as much though with my own simply brewed cider...USA juice and yeast and nothing more.

^ Or beer (commercial and home brewed) or spirits. I mean of course over indulging has it's harsh consequences, but not the "checking for bullet holes or a dent from a sledgehammer bludgeon because my head hurts so bad" feeling I get with wine and commercial cider.

CodyA said:

Yea, I understand it wouldn't kill, but methanol levels is the reason for the difference in a wine or cider hangover vs. a light lager or hard liquor hangover, right?

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no.
Most likely a reaction to binge drinking.

amandabab said:

no.
Most likely a reaction to binge drinking.

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It seems I'm not the only one that can feel the difference here though. I mean hell, I can have a half bottle of wine and still wake up with a slight headache the morning after. I know for a fact that's not the binge drinking side-effect that shrinks the brain matter due to dehydration which causes headaches.

I stumbled across this thread while Googling to find out how much pecEnz to add to my cider. Don't want to come across as a DB but there have been a few statements in this thread that could use some, well, clarification:

Pectin enzyme doesn't increase methanol in any meaningful amount. It's the distillation process that does that, which increases what little methanol is in the wine.


I AM NOT DISCUSSING HOW TO DISTILL, THAT'S ILLEGAL!

The cause [of hangovers] could be fusel alcohols, if fermentation temperatures are not controlled, or if simple sugars are used.


What doesn't make any sense to me is why would a distiller want to clear the product before distilling anyway.


Freeze concentration will not make you go blind and more than cider will, since the ratio of ethanol to methanol remains the same as in the original cider

inexperienced brewer here. The thought came to me that if methanol boils at a lower temperature than ethanol at atmosperic pressure than the same must be true under a vacuum. While degassing with a vacuum pump after th co2 is gone, would not the methanol boil off before you started to lose ethanol? what do you think?

It's that same as in distillation -- initially there will be more methanol in the vapor that if you continued to vac distill, but there will also be ethanol and other flavor components. Something to do with partial pressures. It's been 25 years since I last sat in chem class. Bottom line is that you can't remove all of the methanol in cider by controlling the temp/pressure and pulling it off.

This has gone over the line. Our policy is not up for discussion.