Process Questions

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
S

SkiNuke

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
295
Reaction score
8
Location
Boulder
I am currently getting into wine making and have a sauvignon blanc clarifying right now. I bought a kit for that wine, but I didn't follow the instructions because I wanted to do it right (following jack keller stuff). I bought my own sorbate and sulfites, and the only thing I used from the kit was the juice.

Now, the first half of the process seems pretty simple:
1) Ferment in bucket
2) Transfer to carboy at around 1.020
3) Rack to new carboy after 30 days (adding sulfites)
4) Continue to rack every 30 days until clear (adding sulfites every other rack)

The second half of the process is where i am questioning some things. Most of what I have read says to follow something like this:
5) Bulk age for 6-12 months
6) Stabilize with sorbate and sulfites
7) Back sweeten (if desired)
8) Wait a week or two
9) Bottle

However, I am wondering why even bother bulk aging, why not just bottle and let it age there? Either way, by the time it's clear it has already been a few months since the fermentation stopped. Also, do you even need to stabilize? For a dry wine, if you are following good sanitary procedures and not adding more sugar then it shouldn't ferment more. For a sweetened wine, if you add sugar after its no longer dropping lees then there should be no more yeast to ferment any of the sugar you add.

I guess my question boils down to this: Why not bottle immediately after you are satisfied that your wine is no longer dropping any lees, without the extra steps?
 
SkiNuke said:
However, I am wondering why even bother bulk aging, why not just bottle and let it age there? Either way, by the time it's clear it has already been a few months since the fermentation stopped. Also, do you even need to stabilize? For a dry wine, if you are following good sanitary procedures and not adding more sugar then it shouldn't ferment more. For a sweetened wine, if you add sugar after its no longer dropping lees then there should be no more yeast to ferment any of the sugar you add.

I guess my question boils down to this: Why not bottle immediately after you are satisfied that your wine is no longer dropping any lees, without the extra steps?
Click to expand...

Bulk aging isn't any better than bottle aging, really, except that it ages more evenly. Once the wine is no longer dropping lees after at least 60 days, it can be bottled.

Sorbate is never necessary when not sweetening. If sweetening, you definitely want to add sorbate. Even if the wine is no longer dropping lees, there are still enough yeast in suspension to start fermentation again when more fermentables are added, unless the yeast is already at the alcohol toxicity for that strain. But that can be 18%+ for some strains, so it's not that common to overcome the yeast for a table wine.
 
With regards to bottling, Jack Keller's website says to choose an interval to do the racking (between 30-60 days) and then bottle when there are no more lees at the end of that interval. Would you say 60 days is a better interval than 30? Or do you rack after 30 until there's no lees and then wait an extra 30 before bottling?
 
SkiNuke said:
With regards to bottling, Jack Keller's website says to choose an interval to do the racking (between 30-60 days) and then bottle when there are no more lees at the end of that interval. Would you say 60 days is a better interval than 30? Or do you rack after 30 until there's no lees and then wait an extra 30 before bottling?
Click to expand...

I rack usually twice. I rack 30 days or so after in the secondary. I then add metabisulfite. In the next 30 days the rest of the sediment settles out.

From here, the wines that I've done don't produce much more sediment. I just keep the wine topped up and bulk age until I am ready to bottle.
 
You generally want to rack after 45-60 days, or whenever there are lees 1/4" present if before that interval. If there are ANY lees after 60 days, the wine should be racked.

I hope that helps!
 
Quote by the OP..."I didn't follow the instructions because I wanted to do it right..."

You realize that the instructions are there so you DO IT RIGHT!!!!!
 
DoctorCAD said:
Quote by the OP..."I didn't follow the instructions because I wanted to do it right..."

You realize that the instructions are there so you DO IT RIGHT!!!!!
Click to expand...

I highly doubt most people would agree that wine should be drinkable in 30 days. The instructions in the kit were for that time frame and I wanted to learn the "right way" of doing things so that when I make my peach wine next week, I know what I am doing and don't screw it up. Plus, they wanted me to add the bentonite before fermentation and everything online that I read said never to do that.

And thanks Yooper for the tips, I'll make sure to wait longer for this next racking.
 
SkiNuke said:
I highly doubt most people would agree that wine should be drinkable in 30 days. The instructions in the kit were for that time frame and I wanted to learn the "right way" of doing things so that when I make my peach wine next week, I know what I am doing and don't screw it up. Plus, they wanted me to add the bentonite before fermentation and everything online that I read said never to do that.

And thanks Yooper for the tips, I'll make sure to wait longer for this next racking.
Click to expand...

True, wines generally are not drinkable in 30 days. The finings used in the kits speed up the clearing process so you can bottle sooner and free up the carboy for another wine project.

The purpose of bentonite prior to fermentation is to remove unwanted proteins. The fermentation turbulence also circulates the bentonite.
 
SkiNuke said:
I highly doubt most people would agree that wine should be drinkable in 30 days. The instructions in the kit were for that time frame and I wanted to learn the "right way" of doing things so that when I make my peach wine next week, I know what I am doing and don't screw it up. Plus, they wanted me to add the bentonite before fermentation and everything online that I read said never to do that.

And thanks Yooper for the tips, I'll make sure to wait longer for this next racking.
Click to expand...

Most kits do not say they are drinkable within thirty days, unless it is a mist style kit. The thirty days is the timeframe that if you follow the kit instructions and use kit ingredients you will have a wine that COULD be bottled if all went well and then allowed to age. I think most kits say in their instructions that you could drink a bottle at end of timeframe but they give a recommendation for aging. The additives at certain times are there for a reason, and loads of research has gone into the formulation of their kits. And IMHO, making wine from your own fruit is nothing like making a kit wine. Kit juice has already been balanced to proper brix, pH, acid level. Kits take the guess work out of it. Many winemakers use bentonite up front, it has many beneficial properties if you use it properly. And Jack Keller is an advocate of adding sorbate plus k-meta even to a dry wine.
 
DoctorCAD said:
Whatever...
Click to expand...

I don't see how this is constructive...If you think I am wrong then try and help me understand why I am wrong so I can change my opinion, but saying this makes no sense and is degrading to the conversation.

With regards to the kit instructions, I always take instructions with a grain of salt. I have found that often when you have any background knowledge and are following kit instructions, it's difficult to understand where they are coming from and either you have to just say screw it and follow the instructions blindly or ditch the instructions all together. I like to understand why I am doing things and following directions blindly doesn't teach me anything. Also, the wine kit instructions were contradicting most of the research I did online and I decided to go with what I found on this forum and other sources. I know if I had blindly followed the instructions that I would have come out the other side with something drinkable, but if I were working for a company writing instructions like this, I would write them such that people will buy another kit sooner.
 
SkiNuke said:
With regards to the kit instructions, I always take instructions with a grain of salt. I have found that often when you have any background knowledge and are following kit instructions, it's difficult to understand where they are coming from and either you have to just say screw it and follow the instructions blindly or ditch the instructions all together. I like to understand why I am doing things and following directions blindly doesn't teach me anything. Also, the wine kit instructions were contradicting most of the research I did online and I decided to go with what I found on this forum and other sources. I know if I had blindly followed the instructions that I would have come out the other side with something drinkable, but if I were working for a company writing instructions like this, I would write them such that people will buy another kit sooner.
Click to expand...

Wine kits are different than beer kits, though! Most beer kits have terrible to so-so instructions. But the wine kits are actually quite good with their instructions. Each kit manufacturer has them a little different (when to top up, when to degas, when to rack), but they all work great for their product.
 
real wine makers make wine from fresh fruit just saying....but in all fairness a kit is the best place to start because you learn the basics of wine making. Follow the directions so you can learn and then move on to fresh fruit.
 
Honda88 said:
real wine makers make wine from fresh fruit just saying....but in all fairness a kit is the best place to start because you learn the basics of wine making. Follow the directions so you can learn and then move on to fresh fruit.
Click to expand...

"real" winemakers...you're actually going to go there?

P.S. Real bikers don't ride Hondas.
 
SkiNuke said:
I don't see how this is constructive...If you think I am wrong then try and help me understand why I am wrong so I can change my opinion, but saying this makes no sense and is degrading to the conversation.

With regards to the kit instructions, I always take instructions with a grain of salt. I have found that often when you have any background knowledge and are following kit instructions, it's difficult to understand where they are coming from and either you have to just say screw it and follow the instructions blindly or ditch the instructions all together. I like to understand why I am doing things and following directions blindly doesn't teach me anything. Also, the wine kit instructions were contradicting most of the research I did online and I decided to go with what I found on this forum and other sources. I know if I had blindly followed the instructions that I would have come out the other side with something drinkable, but if I were working for a company writing instructions like this, I would write them such that people will buy another kit sooner.
Click to expand...

Wasn't meant to be constructive. No matter what I would add, you obviously aren't going to listen to any advice that recommends following directions, so why try?
 
DoctorCAD said:
Wasn't meant to be constructive. No matter what I would add, you obviously aren't going to listen to any advice that recommends following directions, so why try?
Click to expand...
Then why even bother responding to this thread? Just ignore it and move on with your life and let me decide what advice I'll listen to. I'm sure you have better things to do than be passive aggressive and insulting on a normally helpful forum.

Back on topic...My stance on kit instructions applies to more than just beer/wine making, I'll rarely follow instructions that come with anything I buy since I would rather get advice from the pros than a marketer. Instead I look at them as suggestions and a parts list and that's about it. However, by the sound of it wine kit instructions are better than average. I'll have to keep that in mind for the next kit I do. As it is, I am about 2 racks into clarification (30 days apart), I'll let it sit for 45-60 days and rack again if needed. Thanks for the help.
 
Skinuke said...

Back on topic...My stance on kit instructions applies to more than just beer/wine making, I'll rarely follow instructions that come with anything I buy since I would rather get advice from the pros than a marketer. Instead I look at them as suggestions and a parts list and that's about it. However, by the sound of it wine kit instructions are better than average. ...

I know that Wine Expert values the experience that their staff brings to the team. Tim Vandergrift is the go to for their kits, and he has been making wine on an individual level for years, and he brings that knowledge to the kit development team at WE. He has been published countless number of times and has a blog. The fact that you read on forums that people have bought x-amount of particular kits from year to year says a lot. I have purchased a handful of kits, different brands, and their instructions have all followed the same model. WE are what I prefer, but kit wines are rare for me. It is the individual's responsibility to do some learning beforehand---and not rely on the kit info to explain it to you. The 'but why' moments are for us to investigate and learn from.
 
SkiNuke said:
I am currently getting into wine making and have a sauvignon blanc clarifying right now. I bought a kit for that wine, but I didn't follow the instructions because I wanted to do it right (following jack keller stuff). I bought my own sorbate and sulfites, and the only thing I used from the kit was the juice.

Now, the first half of the process seems pretty simple:
1) Ferment in bucket
2) Transfer to carboy at around 1.020
3) Rack to new carboy after 30 days (adding sulfites)
4) Continue to rack every 30 days until clear (adding sulfites every other rack)

The second half of the process is where i am questioning some things. Most of what I have read says to follow something like this:
5) Bulk age for 6-12 months
6) Stabilize with sorbate and sulfites
7) Back sweeten (if desired)
8) Wait a week or two
9) Bottle

However, I am wondering why even bother bulk aging, why not just bottle and let it age there? Either way, by the time it's clear it has already been a few months since the fermentation stopped. Also, do you even need to stabilize? For a dry wine, if you are following good sanitary procedures and not adding more sugar then it shouldn't ferment more. For a sweetened wine, if you add sugar after its no longer dropping lees then there should be no more yeast to ferment any of the sugar you add.

I guess my question boils down to this: Why not bottle immediately after you are satisfied that your wine is no longer dropping any lees, without the extra steps?
Click to expand...

As this being your first wine kit/adventure, follow the instructions. When you do kit #2, experiment a little based on your first kit and what you have learned.

Following the instructions for kit one will give you a baseline to compare your experimentation and others' methods.

As Sara has said, the kits are designed to give you good results.
 
Honda88 said:
real wine makers make wine from fresh fruit just saying....but in all fairness a kit is the best place to start because you learn the basics of wine making. Follow the directions so you can learn and then move on to fresh fruit.
Click to expand...

Really? I just I'm just a fake winemaker that's been making wine since before you were born? That's a very arrogant and ignorant statement.

You could take it further- real bakers grind their own flour. Real chefs slaughter their own beef. Real baristas grown, harvest, and roast their own coffee beans. And so on.

There are plenty of expert winemakers (even professional vintners) that start with already pressed grapes. Many vineyards even purchase grapes and juice from other vineyards. I guess if they buy pressed grapes, they must not be "real" either?

I would put some of my wine from already pressed white grape juice against any of yours. just saying.
 
SkiNuke said:
T
Back on topic...My stance on kit instructions applies to more than just beer/wine making, I'll rarely follow instructions that come with anything I buy since I would rather get advice from the pros than a marketer. Instead I look at them as suggestions and a parts list and that's about it. However, by the sound of it wine kit instructions are better than average. I'll have to keep that in mind for the next kit I do. As it is, I am about 2 racks into clarification (30 days apart), I'll let it sit for 45-60 days and rack again if needed. Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

Yes, actually, that's true. Winexpert actually guarantees their kits completely- IF you go by the directions exactly. It seems wrong, after all we know about commercial products and how we tweak them- but I promise that it's true!

saramc said:
.

I know that Wine Expert values the experience that their staff brings to the team. Tim Vandergrift is the go to for their kits, and he has been making wine on an individual level for years, and he brings that knowledge to the kit development team at WE. He has been published countless number of times and has a blog. The fact that you read on forums that people have bought x-amount of particular kits from year to year says a lot. I have purchased a handful of kits, different brands, and their instructions have all followed the same model. WE are what I prefer, but kit wines are rare for me. It is the individual's responsibility to do some learning beforehand---and not rely on the kit info to explain it to you. The 'but why' moments are for us to investigate and learn from.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with Sara. Tim is a well-known expert on these kits, and he's very approachable about them. You can totally rely on him and the products he supports.
 
SkiNuke said:
Then why even bother responding to this thread? Just ignore it and move on with your life and let me decide what advice I'll listen to. I'm sure you have better things to do than be passive aggressive and insulting on a normally helpful forum.

Back on topic...My stance on kit instructions applies to more than just beer/wine making, I'll rarely follow instructions that come with anything I buy since I would rather get advice from the pros than a marketer. Instead I look at them as suggestions and a parts list and that's about it. However, by the sound of it wine kit instructions are better than average. I'll have to keep that in mind for the next kit I do. As it is, I am about 2 racks into clarification (30 days apart), I'll let it sit for 45-60 days and rack again if needed. Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

So if you where going to bake a cake from a box would you follow the instructions?
 
beerman0001 said:
So if you where going to bake a cake from a box would you follow the instructions?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that's because I don't care if I learn anything from the experience or get a mediocre cake, I just want the cake. But with things from IKEA where it's easier to just figure it out yourself or with something that I want to understand, I generally don't follow directions to the letter.
 

Similar threads

J
Have you ever failed with stabilization?
Replies
2
Views
218
Johnny2
J
T
How to fix a bottling/lees newbie mistake
Replies
13
Views
778
Elk479
Elk479
A
Primo Bottles for Wine Aging
Replies
31
Views
1K
whoaru99
W
artooks
Can Fermentation Smell from a sugar wash get on other wines which are stored in SS tanks with floating lid
Replies
0
Views
298
artooks
artooks
G
Charging - Lemon and Elderflower Sparkling Wine
Replies
7
Views
358
Johnny2
J
SSBrew 300

Latest posts

Back
Top