Extract vs. grain for lambic

After reading wild brews they recommend all grain with a turnbid.
After reading brewing classic styles Jamil recommends using wheat and pilsner extract for lambic for simplicity and too shorten the extra long brew day.

Looking for your opinions on what i should do for my lambic project.
I have procured a 15.5 gallon used wine barrel and bugs. I cant do a 15 gallon batch all at once so i will be spliting it in too 3, 5 gallon batches over 3 weekends, and pouring all the lambic into the barrel after 1056 has had it way with the beer.

I read somewhere that you should sparge with extra hot water to extract tannins from the grain for Lambic style beer. I don't really know how to do that properly with extract brewing.
Maybe you could do 1 all grain batch and have the the rest extract. it would save a lot of time and you could have some authenticity.
Lambic style is 30% unmalted wheat so all grain would also have that advantage over extract.

sounds like an awesome project. I would do all grain if you are going to go through the trouble of actually barrel aging.

I dont think jamil gives the best advice when it comes to sours....


Sometime back Wyeast did trials with sours made with AG and extract, during the tastings the extract batches were always picked out as inferior, I used to have a pdf of the presentation, but cant seem to find it right now, maybe someone else has it? It was from the NHC about 2-3yrs ago if I remember right

With that in mind, and the fact that you procured a 15gal barrel for making the beer in, and I would ask why you would want to cut corners? Not only would the extract batches be more $$ but may not turn out a beer as good as the AG equivalent....

Also, as far as turbid mashes go, Ive tried beers with single infusions and added maltodextrin and it worked very well, Ive done a modified boon mash schedule, and a few weird things where I included flour etc. Ive also done the turbid mash and I dont think I could tell the difference between the any of them

All you really want to do is have a very dextrinous wort when everything is said and done, you really want to feed the bugs to get it sour and funky

how much malto would you add per 5 gallons?
I maybe going the single infusion route then based on the information and experience you have had.

Cheers

id start at 0.5#/5gal and go from there

fermenting in barrels tends to make the beer more sour/funky than in carboys and in carboys i generally use 1#/5gal batch for a single infusion/1st pitching of lambic smack pack

I'll second ryane's statement. Lambic is a long labor of love. You're gonna be fermenting for a year or more. So that begs the question: what difference will an extra hour or two on your brewday make?

While you probably could make a halfway decent lambic with extract, "halfway decent" isn't worth a year or more invested in the project, IMO. If you're gonna do a lambic, do it all- cereal mash, turbos mash, 200 degree sparge, etc... Let's be honest. Most times, I make a batch for the end result. If it's not great, I've lost only a few weeks. But in making a lambic it has to be as much about learning the process as the end result b/c there is a likelihood that the first lambic you make won't be the best you've ever had. If that's the case AND you shortchanged the process, that's 18 months or more wasted. Just my .02.

ryane said:

I dont think jamil gives the best advice when it comes to sours....

Click to expand...

He's said he doesn't really like them very sour and brews accordingly. He's very good at brewing to the style he's aiming for, but if your taste disagrees you probably want to look for alternative advice.

I did an extract with a little steeping grains. I'll post the recipe when I get home. If you used extract, you want to use almost all wheat because it's already cut 50-50 wheat and barley.

based on what you guys have stated ill go for a all grain method.
Can i use flaked wheat?
If not should i use tortified wheat?

Sorry even after reading wild brews twice im still a bit confused.

thanks again.

Beernik you could post yours anyway i may do a 5 gallon and compare my results.

flaked wheat is unmalted wheat. I think you can get regular unflaked unmalted wheat at most natural health food stores. I would not use torrified wheat for this purpose.

Lambic is 70% malted barley and 30% unmalted wheat but some homebrewers looking to add something extra sometimes add oats or other unmalted grains. You should also use aged stale hops or failing that use low alpha hops (tettnang, saaz) and cook them in the oven at a 250 degrees plus for a bit to simulate staleness. In lambic you should use quite a lot of hops but you want no hop bitterness or aroma, just their preservative value.

My lambic was:
14oz light dme
5lbs wheat dme
8oz carapils
8oz German crystal

the grains where primarily to improve mouthfeel.

I let it go for a year and it was a lot like Lindemans Cuvee Rene.

Beernik said:

My lambic was:
14oz light dme
5lbs wheat dme
8oz carapils
8oz German crystal

the grains where primarily to improve mouthfeel.

I let it go for a year and it was a lot like Lindemans Cuvee Rene.

Click to expand...

beernic thanks for the recipe.
didn't notice you where in salt lake until now.



I'll check wholefoods for raw wheat.

been looking at the mad fermintologist site too.

the pic by pic of a turbid was a big help.

*cheers*

I'm anxiously awaiting fruit season so I can get a new one started. I'll probably go all grain this time now that I've got a MLT.

Blauvelt said:

You should also use aged stale hops or failing that use low alpha hops (tettnang, saaz) and cook them in the oven at a 250 degrees plus for a bit to simulate staleness. In lambic you should use quite a lot of hops but you want no hop bitterness or aroma, just their preservative value.

Click to expand...

This isnt really true with what we homebrewers are doing to make a "lambic"

Now if you were to actually spontaneously ferment a beer, then yes, copious amounts of aged hops would be good to use, because they would help to keep down the bad bugs while the good ones get a good hold, things are different when your using a smack pack

because your using a smack pack and pitching the cultures that you want in the beer, adding a ton of hops for preservative effects against bad bugs is unnecessary, not that you cant do it, but most dont have aged hops laying around, and I actually think aging hops in the oven leads to a more cheesy flavor in the end product, I would just suggest hopping to ~10-15IBU with whatever hop you choose

My first pLambic I didn't have any aged hops. It was like my 4th beer brewed. So I opened my hops about a week before brewing to at least get sone aging out of them.

Since then, if I have a recipe that needs 1/2oz or 3/4oz of hops, I put the remainder in a net bag, put that in a paper bag, and store it in my cellar. I've got 4 year old hops now.

I have say that doing it right from the start is the way to go. After 6 months to a year you will happy you did.

A few months ago I did a pLambic and used about 25% flaked wheat,75% pils, mashed at 160 deg, boiled with some aged hops (although not to the same level Wild Brew stated Lambics use), and sparged with 190 deg water.

I used a high mash temp because we love very sour beers at my house. With a 1.050 OG I wanted some sugars for the bugs and brett to eat over the next Millenia.

All the bugs were added with the primary yeast.

BW

Blauvelt said:

You should also use aged stale hops or failing that use low alpha hops (tettnang, saaz) and cook them in the oven at a 250 degrees plus for a bit to simulate staleness. In lambic you should use quite a lot of hops but you want no hop bitterness or aroma, just their preservative value.

Click to expand...

You guys worry about too much.

We're talking about a beer that is going to sit in the fermenter for a year+, and bottle for just as long.


you could dry hop it with amarillo, and its still going to have little to no hop aroma.

FWIW, I did 2 psuedo lambic experiments, comparing extract to all grain, and the all-grains were better. I don't remember the details, but the all grain was better attenuated and more sour.

Beernik said:

My lambic was:
14oz light dme
5lbs wheat dme
8oz carapils
8oz German crystal

the grains where primarily to improve mouthfeel.

I let it go for a year and it was a lot like Lindemans Cuvee Rene.

Click to expand...

which hops and how many and for how long in the boil?