head retention?

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Brewer#19

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started brewing again and a couple of my beers have had great taste, fine carbonation, but are lacking a great head to them. pretty sure i remember reading once upon a time that there is something that can be added during the boil to increase head retention in the beer. i know grain composition depending on beer variety is a factor, but what is that i would add if i wanted to directly boost the head retention of a brew? shot in the dark from my memory, but is it lactose?

thanks for the help.
 
Are you thinking of Maltodextrin? It adds body and mouthfeel to the beer, but I don't know if it will help with head retention.

I find that a bit of flaked barley works wonders for some fluffy head retention.

Here's my Rye IPA.

BCB-RyeIPA.jpg


Here's my IPA

BCB-IPA.jpg


Both have 8 ounces of Flaked Barley in the mash. The head lasts a good long time.
 
I think a lot of people kill head in step mashing. They rest too long and break down to much proteins in the rest and then that transfers into the beer. I personally have only used white wheat for head retention, but my rye beer looked just like Ed's. That has been the only beer with that type of a head on it for me. The others have all been nice and lasted, but that RyePA I did was spot on to Ed's by looking.
 
Actually, Wortmonger, a lot of brewers don't do enough steps in their mash. I've had good success with protein rests when I want better head retention.

I used to think like you do, but I dug a little more and found that proteins really do not do a whole lot for head retention, as most of them come out of solution in the break and then settle. Protein rests break the larger proteins down into smaller ones and to peptides that do not break out of solution. Rather, they stay in and promote head retention.


TL
 
After reading Noonan, you are right TexLaw about it being "albumin (proteoses, peptones, and polypeptides, not protein that gives beer its body and enables it to raise and support a frothy foam head." He does go on to say that, "The protein digestion can be overdone, however. Devoid of proteoses and peptides, the beer would lack body and a froth head. It would be very stable, but very empty tasting." I assume this is done with too long a protein/albumin rest. By too long I mean over 30 minutes.

From New Brewing Lager Beer by Gregory J. Noonan pages 137 and 139.
 
OMG, your kidding right? I had no idea that was the same stuff that caused that, lol. I learn so much from you bastards, lol. I find myself on an almost daily basis saying something I heard on here that relates to something in the real world, lol. People think I am smart because of you guys ;). The meringue thing is definitely getting said at Thanksgiving now, and when my uncle doesn't believe me I am going to tell him another lawyer told me so, lol. TexLaw, on a serious note I would like to know about your steps. I ask because I have only done steps at 122 and then mainly 130 for 30 minutes, beer depending of course. Are these lagers or ales mostly and what do you do? Oh, and hope all you guys caught the joke in calling you bastards.
 
I'm a noob when it comes to mash chem but doesn't malting come into play significantly here as well? I've been doing a bit of google on this today actually and came up with this:

BYO - Protein rests, moldy extract

Just wondering what folks think...

"Most of the demonstrable changes in protein size and solubility are seen in malting where proteases are active. Protease activity dramatically declines during kilning because proteases in malt are rendered unstable by heat and proteolytic activity in finished malt is very low."

The takeaway that I had from my reading today is that, YES step mashing is worth while, but only relative to the grain bill. That is to say that more under modified malts may require it.
 
gwood, you are correct IIRC. The more unmodified your malt the more you need to do things like this. Example is single infusion mashes that have great head retention compared to a true under modified decoction lager grain bill. You would have to coax the lager with a rest, but the other is just fine without. Then you single infusion lagers that have great head retention without a rest. It really does matter on what you are using to determine if it is "necessary" or not.
 
Froth like that should be compliment enough, but you need to go get a pro-brewer hat and wear it proudly. Ed need a stamp of approval he can knight brewers with, lol. Seriously though, very nice. I try to educate people and they think I am just being EAC, but they all tell others what I told them when it comes to beer, lol. I heard a friend the other day who gives me hell about "knowing everything" about beer tell someone exactly what lacing means in a beer. LOL, I just looked over at him and he was like, what? LOL, glad it is rubbing off on non-brewers I guess. All of these pix make me want a sample. I want one of those glasses springer, what style are those called?
 
Froth like that should be compliment enough, but you need to go get a pro-brewer hat and wear it proudly. Ed need a stamp of approval he can knight brewers with, lol. Seriously though, very nice. I try to educate people and they think I am just being EAC, but they all tell others what I told them when it comes to beer, lol. I heard a friend the other day who gives me hell about "knowing everything" about beer tell someone exactly what lacing means in a beer. LOL, I just looked over at him and he was like, what? LOL, glad it is rubbing off on non-brewers I guess. All of these pix make me want a sample. I want one of those glasses springer, what style are those called?

I have no idea my SIL got it for me from the bar he works . The ESB in the pic is long gone but I am doing another soon maybe a swap when its done .....



most likely jinxed myself it turn out flat...lol

This is on the glass think its the makers mark

ESB2.jpg
 
gwood, you are correct IIRC. The more unmodified your malt the more you need to do things like this. Example is single infusion mashes that have great head retention compared to a true under modified decoction lager grain bill. You would have to coax the lager with a rest, but the other is just fine without. Then you single infusion lagers that have great head retention without a rest. It really does matter on what you are using to determine if it is "necessary" or not.

Got it, just wanted to make sure I was at least on the page. I just have to find a couple of good reference sources for what types of grain bills/styles will potentially require steps and which won't. My sense is most of the styles that I'm brewing right (American Ales...APAs and IPAs) won't be impacted.

I do like the idea of step mashing but I'm torn between direct fire vs. steam etc, essentially the difference between really "stepping" between temps or "ramping" between temps.
 
I'm actually not too picky about my steps on the protein rest. I've never gone longer than 30 minutes, normally sticking around 20. Temperatures usually are on the higher side of the range (around 125ish or so, and I've gone up to 130), and I keep my mash thick for the rest (no more than 1:1).

Yes, since I'm always working with fully modified malts, I do not see tremendous differences. However, I most certainly improved head formation, texture, and retention with a protein rest and without adding other grains or maltodextrin. I've also noticed that hazier beers tend to clear more quickly, which makes a bit of sense. Clearing also helps with head retention.

The thick mash helps promote protease activity, and it gives some room to bring the mash temperature up without getting your mash too thin.

I have no doubt that I could get the same or better results with a half-pound of wheat or flaked barley, but the protein rest is a bit of fun tinkering.


TL
 
I'm actually not too picky about my steps on the protein rest. I've never gone longer than 30 minutes, normally sticking around 20. Temperatures usually are on the higher side of the range (around 125ish or so, and I've gone up to 130), and I keep my mash thick for the rest (no more than 1:1).

Yes, since I'm always working with fully modified malts, I do not see tremendous differences. However, I most certainly improved head formation, texture, and retention with a protein rest and without adding other grains or maltodextrin. I've also noticed that hazier beers tend to clear more quickly, which makes a bit of sense. Clearing also helps with head retention.

The thick mash helps promote protease activity, and it gives some room to bring the mash temperature up without getting your mash too thin.

I have no doubt that I could get the same or better results with a half-pound of wheat or flaked barley, but the protein rest is a bit of fun tinkering.


TL

What is your set up like TL? Do you direct fire your mashtun or recirculate?
 
thanks for the response guys and glad to see a quick question turned into a good discussion. i'll throw some flaked barley in my next batch.
 
+1 on flaked barely....Torrified wheat is another one if you can find it.
 
Thanks TexLaw, I was thinking the same thing about kicking out my carapils on that last recipe and got great head retention with the 130*F 30 minute rest. It actually had better head than the same recipe with the carapils. I was just curious about what exactly you did, so now I feel I did right. In the brewery they just did single infusion and I always wanted to do steps at home because of how fun they are. Now decoctions are fun ;). My P-canner is gonna get a lot of use on lagers with adjuncts.
 
Thanks TexLaw, I was thinking the same thing about kicking out my carapils on that last recipe and got great head retention with the 130*F 30 minute rest. It actually had better head than the same recipe with the carapils.

I'm not very surprised, there. Carapils adds more unfermentable sugars to the wort, rather than protein, and I understand that protein content is much more important to head formation and retention than unfermentables. The albumin, other proteins, and peptides create a matrix that the saccharides can supplement or just fill in, but they don't hold up like the proteins.

Just look at sea foam. That's protein, not sugar. ;)


TL
 
I'm not very surprised, there. Carapils adds more unfermentable sugars to the wort, rather than protein, and I understand that protein content is much more important to head formation and retention than unfermentables. The albumin, other proteins, and peptides create a matrix that the saccharides can supplement or just fill in, but they don't hold up like the proteins.

Just look at sea foam. That's protein, not sugar. ;)


TL

So are unfermentables more about mouthfeel than head retention? I've used carapils in my last few batches and TBH, I can't tell the difference.
 
I hear people talk about using 4-8oz. I've never actually actually done it, though. I get enough head without having to throw the LHBS guy an extra two or four bits.

(They'll love to hear that at the LHBS, I'm sure!)


TL
 
TexLaw said:
I get enough head without having to throw the LHBS guy an extra two or four bits.

(They'll love to hear that at the LHBS, I'm sure!)


TL

Uhhh TexLaw... might wanna rephrase that a little maybe, unless you are getting your head at the LHBS and then please excuse this childish attempt at humor, lol.
 
I love the search feature. Every time i have a question I find an answer. It's saved me from asking dozens of questions everyone else has asked a 100 times. :mug:
 
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