apple jack

i've got some organic home made apple cider going and was wondering if anyone out there knows about making apple jack... just stick it in the freezer after it's fermented and cleared completely?

voodoobrew said:

i've got some organic home made apple cider going and was wondering if anyone out there knows about making apple jack... just stick it in the freezer after it's fermented and cleared completely?

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Right.Then dip off some of the ice crystals 'til it suits you....

As I understand it (and I may be totally wrong, but I'm sure someone here can correct me) freeze distillation, or "jacking", allows the nasty stuff in alcohol to concentrate. Apparently the fusel alcohols that would normally be run off as the tails of a pot distillation are, of course, left in when you "jack". I believe these are what can contribute to unhealthy side effects. Now the amount that you would need to consume to harm yourself and the amount that you would consume from apple jack are worlds apart, with applejack having a pretty small amount.

But why would you want to consume a substance like that, even in a small amount? On the other hand, as Paracelsus said, "All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous." Which is sort of an axiom in toxicology.

Not to mention that any kind of home distillation in the United States is illegal.

I was unaware that freezing an alcoholic beverage was considered a form of distillation. I do not intend on doing so, as I am excited for plain hard cider. I also do not suggest anyone else use fractal distilling as it is illegal and potentially tasty.

voodoobrew said:

I was unaware that freezing an alcoholic beverage was considered a form of distillation. I do not intend on doing so, as I am excited for plain hard cider. I also do not suggest anyone else use fractal distilling as it is illegal and potentially tasty.

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actually its not illegal, brewstrong did an episode a while back where they talked to an atf guy about it, he said it wasnt, and even if it was catching and prosecuting you would be a logistical nightmare

ryane said:

actually its not illegal, brewstrong did an episode a while back where they talked to an atf guy about it, he said it wasnt, and even if it was catching and prosecuting you would be a logistical nightmare

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Has anybody ever read about, or even heard about, anyone being busted for jackin' cider??

I doubt this thread will be here long........ I believe making jack is illegal and therefore the Mods will remove it.

I assume they will anyway.

I like the idea of it though.

Salute!

Freeze concentration is perfectly fine, that's why we can discuss eisbier.

Rule of thumb:
If you are just removing water from the bulk, legal.
If you are removing the alcohol from the bulk and collecting it, illegal.

Examples:
Freezing beer and removing the ice to increase alcohol content, legal
Boiling beer so that the alcohol vaporizes to produce a non-alcoholic beer, legal
Boiling beer so that the alcohol vaporizes and then collect the alcohol, illegal

As said above, just freeze the cider and remove ice until you get the strength you want.

Fill a plastic jug to about 3/4 and let it freeze completely solid.
At least 3 days at zero degrees Fahrenheit.
Then invert the jug over a large jar and collect half the original volume.

No, freeze concentration is NOT illegal.

I feel like we have discussed the topic enough here that people wouldn't chime in doubting its legality every time one of these threads is brought up!

I haven't done much research into the matter. Most of what we "know" about distillation is myth/urban ledgend/misinformation from the Prohibition. Check out the legalization of home distillation thread in the debate forum for more on that. What it comes down to though is most of the "nasty" chemicals associated with bad spirits actually come from people distilling in old radiators, or spiking with denatured alcohol or other poisons to make it cheaper.

If you have a controlled ferment and don't produce much in the way of fusels, you won't end up with "extremely concentrated" fusels in the final product. Also, one round of freeze concentration will not even double your ABV, unless you are really experienced. Its not like you are going to get up in the 40% range. You would probably concentrate a 5% cider to around 8-10%.

Well the ATF wouldn't be the problem, it would be the Dept. of The Treasury for failing to pay excise tax. And the U.S.C covers it pretty well.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter J > PART I > § 5601
(8) Unlawful production of distilled spirits
not being a distiller authorized by law to produce distilled spirits, produces distilled spirits by distillation or any other process from any mash, wort, wash, or other material.

So I guess if you don't consider freeze distillation to be, well, distillation, then it's all okay. But as stated, who is going to investigate your home freeze distillation program and prosecute you unless you make some noise?

Concerning the fusels, they actually are produced during fermentation, but likely could come from another source if you weren't using sanitary conditions. (As stated, the ghastly idea of using a radiator or spiking the beverage) But the dictionary definition of fusel oil (the collection of the fusel alcohols) is "A volatile, poisonous mixture of isoamyl, butyl, propyl, and heptyl alcohols produced as by-products in alcoholic fermentation of starches, grains, or fruits to produce ethyl alcohol."

The Wikipedia page on fusels covers that subject pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusel_alcohol

One of the cited sources on the page is a pretty good read too: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/74/8/2259?view=long&pmid=18281432

I guess it is true that fusels aren't all bad, as explained in the wikipedia article, they make up part of the flavor profile of some spirits like whisky.

I suppose whatever you do, if done quietly, is your own business. I just know that "someone I know" tried to freeze jack once, started with a good cider, got the finished product pretty well up there abv-wise, and it just had a gross oily texture to it and a kind-of nasty flavor if you didn't drink it right out of the freezer. Even then it was pretty much like a moonshine; Good for getting drunk, not much else.

We allow threads on fractional freezing. If you want to debate the law, start a new thread.

Fractional freezing is not distilling which is why brewers can make eisbier and not be a licensed distiller. No need to worry about the TTB coming after you.

Please limit the discussion to the actual process of fractional freezing (specifically, as it applies to apple jack). Further discussion of its legality at this point is simply off topic drivel (not helpful to the OP).

So, on topic then, I wonder how cold you would need to get the original brew to avoid the slush like consistency and (what seems to me) an awful lot of loss of that mixture when you skim the ice. The way I first heard about it (no idea if this would ever happen, and it doesn't really seem possible now that I know a bit more about the science of it) when this type of distillation was popular in the colonial days, you could leave a barrel out in the winter cold and as the water separated it would get hard enough that all you would have to do to collect the distillate would be to drill a hole through the ice and pour out the center. That seems mythical though.

It would be interesting to talk to someone with a scientific background related to this subject. They could likely shed a lot of light.

Dam, folks, we are talking about apple jack here! .........

A couple more questions on the process then...

is there such a thing as jacking too cold or quickly?... like could i use liquid nitrogen to insta-freeze the cider and then 'harvest' the first half or so that melts off (or didn't freeze)? Or does separation and crystallization need to take place over a longer period of time?

Also, when concentrating cider ( or eisbeer) is there formula for ABV? Could it be as simple as 10 gallons @ 5%abv concentrated down to 5 gallons would have 10%abv?

voodoobrew said:

A couple more questions on the process then...

is there such a thing as jacking too cold or quickly?... like could i use liquid nitrogen to insta-freeze the cider and then 'harvest' the first half or so that melts off (or didn't freeze)? Or does separation and crystallization need to take place over a longer period of time?

Also, when concentrating cider ( or eisbeer) is there formula for ABV? Could it be as simple as 10 gallons @ 5%abv concentrated down to 5 gallons would have 10%abv?

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You'd have the same volume of alcohol in a smaller volume of solution.

So let's say you started with 5 gallons of 10% ABV cider, you'd have 1.89L of pure alcohol. If you were able to reduce the overall volume by 25% (or 4.73L) (this is going to depend on temperature, but just as an example) you'd have 18.93L - 4.73L = 14.2L of applejack with 1.89L of that being pure alcohol. This would give you an applejack with an ABV of 13.31%.

It would not be applejack and quite unpalatable.

sudbuster said:

It would not be applejack and quite unpalatable.

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The numbers were just an example of figuring out the math. You would need to reduce that 13% cider more by freezing it again at a colder temperature. The higher your starting ABV the higher your final applejack volume because you would need to freeze less water out of it..

also, remember you don't just remove water. Since alcohol is miscable in water (hence why your beer/cider doesn't separate) you will also remove some alcohol and some other flavor compounds.

to add to edcculus

with each subsequent freezing you will be depressing the freeze point of the solution, making it more and more difficult to concentrate the applejack

Hey, I've jacked some cider. What I would suggest is that first you add a bunch of sugar to up the ABV as high as you can. Then pour some of your cider into a mason jar and stick it into the freezer. Then you want to check on it in an hour or so. There should be a thin layer of ice on the top (if not, put it back in and check back in a half hour). Now you should either scoop out that ice with a spoon, or punch a small hole in the ice and transfer the liquid to another jar. Repeat this process as many times as you like. Remember that you have to check on it more often now that it is cold. I don't think that you should let it get slushy. In my opinion, you lose too much volume (and alcohol) when you do that. If it gets slushy, I would recommend letting it melt and starting over.

I'm having trouble with this tread bcause it seem some folks are associating the word "Applejack" with Lairds Applejack which is far removed from colonial applejack. Lairds and others are distillers. Their product contains only about 13% apple and is a brandy. Jacking of apple cider is not to produce brandy, but to enhance the flavour elements of cider. Nor is jacking a means of making a product of higher alcohol content for the purpose of attaining a quick drunk (which is notrious for its after effects, ie Edworts Apfelwein). Maybe my understanding of some of the posts is just a "generation" thing, if so, please excuse me and disregard.....

Sandbuster - I completely agree. I feel like most of the talk surrounding applejack (and some cider threads) is pseudo "hooch". Just like eisbock, it is a means of increasing the alcohol, but it also concentrates the flavors. My vision of applejack, if I were to try and make it would be made from really good cider, probably no sugar added. I'd probably concentrate it up to the wine range, bottle it still and serve room temp or very slightly chilled.

I have a bottle of Lairds right here -- it's 40% alcohol (Says it right on the label...)... but you can tell by the smell and taste that it's not a true "Apple brandy" like a Calvados... and I think this is where Sudbuster was going..... It's definitely a blend of what tastes like grain neutral + a little residual apple flavor...

One tip to consider when freeze concentrating hard Apple cider.... Don't use pectic enzyme -- the breakdown of the pectin produces pectic acid and a small amount of methanol.... This methanol is naturally in every glass of fruit stand fresh pressed apple cider (Soft cider) that we drink as well as in our hard cider... but using pectic enzyme causes it to break down faster and makes more than if you just left it be... Unfortunately, it gets concentrated along with everything else that doesn't freeze... Don't take me the wrong way -- it's not like you are going to get 5% methanol.... more like going from 0.1% to 0.2% or something like that....

So... If you are going to make normal hard cider -- use pectic enzyme so it clears in the bottle properly...... If you are going to freeze it to make apple jack -- don't use pectic enzyme.... at least that's the result of my reading into the subject....

Thanks

John

truckjohn said:

I have a bottle of Lairds right here -- it's 40% alcohol (Says it right on the label...)... but you can tell by the smell and taste that it's not a true "Apple brandy" like a Calvados... and I think this is where Sudbuster was going..... It's definitely a blend of what tastes like grain neutral + a little residual apple flavor...

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ah, I was under the impression he was saying applejack and apple brandy are two totally different products, and that people shouldn't expect to get something like apple brandy by freeze concentration.

They sure are different products -- but Laird's is a bad example of "Apple Jack"... because it isn't really apple jack per-se....

Usually, real apple jack has a very intense flavor -- everything gets concentrated when you freeze out the water... both good and bad... so you get nearly 100% of the acid and 100% of weird off flavors and such along with the alcohol....

In a real apple brandy like a calvados -- you get the apple scent and essence without the weird off flavors, acid, etc....

Both are great for what they are....

Thanks

John

sudbuster said:

I'm having trouble with this tread bcause it seem some folks are associating the word "Applejack" with Lairds Applejack which is far removed from colonial applejack. Lairds and others are distillers. Their product contains only about 13% apple and is a brandy. Jacking of apple cider is not to produce brandy, but to enhance the flavour elements of cider. Nor is jacking a means of making a product of higher alcohol content for the purpose of attaining a quick drunk (which is notrious for its after effects, ie Edworts Apfelwein). Maybe my understanding of some of the posts is just a "generation" thing, if so, please excuse me and disregard.....

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Actually, I think you have it completely backwards. Jacking is freeze concentration, simple as that.

If I can't freeze a 20% alcohol solution I can't freeze it, it doesn't matter if it started as a 10% solution or a 1% solution. The difference is, it takes less concentration to start at 10% than it does to start at 1% so I end up with a higher volume.

I don't think any one here, aside from you, has mentioned anything about making a fortified apple brandy. Unless I'm missing it, which is entirely possible as I'm pretty tired.

I've done the scoop-crystal method and it was headache juice. I even aged it on some oak for several months in a futile attempt to mellow the fusel, but it was still migraine juice.

I was refered to this thread from an original one that I made. Here is my question. I was thinking of making a hard apple cider then jacking it. I was told that this technicaly is not apple jack.

I was told apple jack is more of a brandy...but I feel like thats not the traditional way it was made. I feel like in colonial times instead of it being 40- 50% alcohol it was like 10-20 or even 30 percent.

Now, with that stated. I want to make apple jack the traditional way. Hard apple cider freeze destill it a bunch in order to get a more flavorful higher content cider. What are the steps?? I was thinking of making my own apple cider with a press . Make it fresh.... but someone also told me I can make it with apple cider out of the bottle. What way is better for this process...

I read the post about freezing the cider then drilling a hole in the ice and draining the rest out into another container and repeating that process.

If you want to try it out, just try it out.... You are *Way* over thinking the whole thing.... Freeze cider in a bowl. When ice crystals start forming on the top -- scoop them out with a kitchen strainer. Repeat as needed to make you happy...

Read the comments about "Headache juice" very carefully -- Apples tend to produce a little Methanol because of the Pectin breaking down into Pectic acid and Methanol -- It's not from the yeast fermenting it.... It's a totally natural thing when the pectin breaks down -- and yes.... fresh pressed sweet non-alcoholic cider actually contains a little methanol because of this.... Apples are just naturally quite high in Pectin...

When you freeze concentrate it -- you concentrate this small amount of methanol into a larger amount of methanol.... and you get headache juice....

The big industrial processing houses use a whole series of treatments to filter out the Methanol so it doesn't stay in the concentrate....

Thanks

John

Alright so I will keep it simple.

Jonbomb, So did you make some Apple Jack? If so how did it turn out?

Cheers

If you pasteurize the must before fermenting(like most do with their ciders) you should destroy the pectolase (pectic enzyme) wich breakes down Pectin into Pectic acid and Methanol,thus the rezulting ferment should mostly contain ethanol.
Also fermenting at a temp. in the lower limit of the yeasts tolerance range should prevent it from fermenting fusels(higher-order alcohols),because at temperatures above 80°F, yeast can produce too much of the higher weight fusel alcohols which have lower taste thresholds than ethanol.
And about the legal issues FRACTIONAL FREEZING is a process to separate two liquids with different melting points which technically is legal because its a form of CONCENTRATION,while DISTILLATION is a process which separates two liquids with different boiling points, so there is a big difference between CONCENTRATION and DISTILLATION.
Also even if distillation is ilegal its still ok to talk about it.

If I remember right from the last time i looked it up, you can get 30% ABV if you freeze it to -30F. Some ice cream freezers will go to -20F which can get you 20% ABV.

I got the crazy idea of freezing with dry ice to get (50%?) ABV but I never done it because the 20% I make now, without concentrating, is the upper limit of what I can drink.

mikefox said:

Also even if distillation is ilegal its still ok to talk about it.

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Not on this forum.

OK. There are hundreds of threads on apple jack, and none of them seem to have a step by step with a recipe that actually tastes good. I keep reading threads that say "tastes harsh", but someone always seems to have a friend who made it and it tested great. Is there anyone on here who actually makes applejack, and it actually is good quality. If so, could you please chime in and let us know your process, I would really like to try this.

I have made many batches of hard cider, and over half of them were freeze concentrated. ( hereafter referred to as AJ) Do not be fooled, AJ is deceptively strong. You can look at some of my prior posts here if you need more info. Fermentation diminishes the apple flavor or at least to me it does. I stopped fooling around with different recipes using different sugars, because all it did was make high alcohol crappy tasting hooch, in my opinion. I get the best cider for the money I can, not using any reconstituted juice off the shelf when I can.
If you start out using 2 liter bottles like I did, if something goes wrong, no great loss. Back to my point, I use this method: pour 1 can FAJC, into a 2 liter bottle, and top off with store bought juice/cider. If I remember correctly, the O.G. is somewhere in the 1.080's. Add your yeast of choice, I use ESB 1968 as it doesn't ferment to completely dry. My freezer, in the beginning, was set to 10* F and I would freeze the bottles for 2 days, and then turn them upside down into a glass/tumbler and I would taste at different points during collection. The first couple of ounces are super high ABV, and as the color bleeds from the ice, so does the alcohol ABV. Let's say the S.G. of the cider is 10% ABV, that would mean that 6.5 oz of 200 proof alcohol is in there. But I digress, you could freeze and refreeze, etc. but it's not likely you'll get anywhere close to 200 proof by this method. The reason I use FAJC in my cider does two things: 1) it helps with the final flavor, and 2) there is enough residual sugar to take the alcohol edge off of the AJ. Think of schnapps, definite alcohol presence with a smooth, kind of sweet flavor to sip on.

I cant imagine any ATF agent wanting to waste his time on a guy Jacking a few gallons of cider even if it was illegal.

Hell even if you happened to raise its temperature and had come clear liquid end up in a glass I cant imagine him wanting to waste his time even though it is illegal.