Easy Stove-Top Pasteurizing - With Pics

Thanks Pappers,

I read through all the 28 pages of this thread (it would make a good book..not sure if it'll be a mystery or a thriller though). I'm going to try the pasteurization following exactly your method using mini (375ml) champagne bottles they are rated at 7 bar with 29mm caps..should give me some margin. I'll just have to make sure the cider works out good from the start without relying too much on aging in the bottle..though I am sure some improvement over the short term will happen, even if the yeast is killed, as the carbonation reaches equilibrium between the air-space and the cider.

The head on your cider looks great even if I now I know not to expect "Belgian lace".

Cheers to you too !

natewv said:

wow so long story short, pasteurizing this way allows what's left of the sugars to carb until you like where it is then you kill the yeast so you don't need to add sweetener at all, huh? or am i missing something? My recipe I was thinking of doing in the next day or two included 4 cans of concentrate...so is that not necessary in this situation or do I still need that to get the OG up?

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I've read through a lot of this, but I was hoping someone could give me some last advice...pursuant to my last question...can someone help me fill in the blanks here?

8 days ago I started my first batch of "cider" (on a healthy ale yeast cake) made up of 4.5 gallons of apple juice and 6 cans of apple concentrate, OG was around 1.066. I'm aiming for a:
*slightly sweet (i.e., mostly dry)
*hopefully strong,
*lightly carbonated beverage.

Based on your experiences:

*How much long should I let primary fermentation go (am i aiming for a preferred taste [and if so do i start checking now...after 8 days] or a preferred gravity)?

*Once I decide to bottle, do I need to prime (and is this reliant on the answer to the first question)? If I prime it will be with another can or 2 of apple or another fruit's concentrate(meant to use a natural cherry concentrate can or two at the start but my ****ty grocery store had none but apple)...i do not want to use any artifical stuff.

How long after I bottle should I try to pasteurize?

Thanks for your help!

natewv said:

*How much long should I let primary fermentation go (am i aiming for a preferred taste [and if so do i start checking now...after 8 days] or a preferred gravity)?

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I aim for about 1.010 - 1.012 gravity, so bottle when it reaches that.

*Once I decide to bottle, do I need to prime (and is this reliant on the answer to the first question)? If I prime it will be with another can or 2 of apple or another fruit's concentrate(meant to use a natural cherry concentrate can or two at the start but my ****ty grocery store had none but apple)...i do not want to use any artifical stuff.

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You don't need to prime, the yeast will keep eating the sugars still in the cider. That being said, I usually do prime, so that the gravity stays at where I want it.

How long after I bottle should I try to pasteurize?

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After you bottle, you need to check your bottles regularly and pasteurize when it's appropriately carbonated. Err on the side of checking too often and early. For me, with the cider I make using Nottingham yeast, it can be anywhere from three to seven days.

Another option for you is to use the method described at www.makinghardcider.com

Pappers_ said:

I aim for about 1.010 - 1.012 gravity, so bottle when it reaches that.

You don't need to prime, the yeast will keep eating the sugars still in the cider. That being said, I usually do prime, so that the gravity stays at where I want it.

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Ok so my gravity is already down to 1.005. It tasted pretty dry, so I'd like to add a bit more of something sweet to sweeten it and increase the gravity, and then I guess bottle pretty soon? What would you add to prime it? I only mentioned the concentrate because the recipe I happened to use indicated as much.

You could add more juice to get to around 1.012, bottle, and keep a close eye on it to see when you need to pasteurize.

Or you could backsweeten with a non-fermentable, as suggested in the procress described in www.makinghardcider.com

Good luck!

Pappers_ said:

You could add more juice to get to around 1.012, bottle, and keep a close eye on it to see when you need to pasteurize.

Or you could backsweeten with a non-fermentable, as suggested in the procress described in www.makinghardcider.com

Good luck!

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Thank you, i read through the making hard cider site, and I just don't like the idea of backsweetening with non-fermentables. I have no real good reason, I know Xylitol is natural and all, it just 'seems' unnatural...same as splenda, etc. I am going to try to use your method of stopping fermentation.

I guess what I was asking about being at 1.005 is after 9 days are my yeasties dead, or have they just eaten all the sugar and are becoming dormant...so that when I add more juice to bring up the gravity as you suggest, I will get a) the additional sweetness I want and b) the carbonation I want until I pasteurize?

Edit: Last question, I promise!

natewv said:

I guess what I was asking about being at 1.005 is after 9 days are my yeasties dead, or have they just eaten all the sugar and are becoming dormant...so that when I add more juice to bring up the gravity as you suggest, I will get a) the additional sweetness I want and b) the carbonation I want until I pasteurize?

Edit: Last question, I promise!

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No, your yeast isn't dead, dormant, or done eating the sugars. They will keep eating the apple sugars until they are all gone and your gravity is 1.000 or less.

When you add in the apple juice to backsweeten, they will start to eat that up, too.

So, backsweeten to the level you want, bottle immediately, start checking for carbonation, and pasteurize. As I mentioned above, err on the side of checking for carbonation early and often, and don't pasteurize over-carbonated bottled.

Ok, can someone give an idea as to what over-carbonated entails? People mention "fountains" when they open something over carbonated and that would be dangerous to heat pasteurize.

I had some bottles which when I opened to test they foamed up out of the bottle but did not spray or shoot out. I closed them back up (flip top). Considering they foamed like that I opened them all up to release some of the pressure before pasteurizing. Sadly, they are all flat with only the slightest hint of carbonation.

So guess what I'm asking is when the test bottle is opened what should we be looking for?

Generally, mine don't foam up. I open and pour into a glass, and look for a steady stream of beads for carbonation. Because its cider, it doesn't get a head, like beer. Its the beads of CO2 streaming up through the cider that I look for.

You may have to experiment a little, find the balance that works best for you.

I read through all the 29 pages of this thread. Someone asked a question before, which is quite similar to the one I have. I didnt see it answered, so I',m asking again (sorry if it was in fact answered) -
If you open a bottle before pasteurizing and realize that the carbonation is not to your liking (or none at all), should you recap and check the same bottle again next day or another bottle? I'm assuming a newer bottle since some C02 will escape when I open the cap. Also, will the carbonation be affected to a larger degree after you recap?
Thanks for such an informative thread... I hope to someday find enough courage to try it without fear of bottle bombs

ncodedcode said:

I read through all the 29 pages of this thread. Someone asked a question before, which is quite similar to the one I have. I didnt see it answered, so I',m asking again (sorry if it was in fact answered) -
If you open a bottle before pasteurizing and realize that the carbonation is not to your liking (or none at all), should you recap and check the same bottle again next day or another bottle? I'm assuming a newer bottle since some C02 will escape when I open the cap. Also, will the carbonation be affected to a larger degree after you recap?
Thanks for such an informative thread... I hope to someday find enough courage to try it without fear of bottle bombs

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I asked a similar question to this a few months ago, Pappers basically said he has never tried it but it couldnt hurt so I went ahead and did it. My observations of the results are as follows.

1) the primary issue with this process is that bottle carbing is a warm(ish) process but CO2 doesn't dissolve well in warm liquids so you end up loosing allot of carbonation when opening a bottle up. Ideally, you would need to refrigerate the test bottle a couple of days for the CO2 to properly desolve in the liquid but then it would not be a good representation of the rest of the batch. So.....

2) Observing the fact that it is not anywhere near an ideal process, I do it this way anyway (using a different test bottle each time). Once I have achieved a desirable level of carbonation (4-6 days), I pasteurize the un-tested bottles and leave the tested bottles sit another day or two and then just throw those in the fridge. I have done it this way twice now and the results have been good enough that I dont see changing methods any time soon.

ncodedcode said:

I read through all the 29 pages of this thread. Someone asked a question before, which is quite similar to the one I have. I didnt see it answered, so I',m asking again (sorry if it was in fact answered) -
If you open a bottle before pasteurizing and realize that the carbonation is not to your liking (or none at all), should you recap and check the same bottle again next day or another bottle? I'm assuming a newer bottle since some C02 will escape when I open the cap. Also, will the carbonation be affected to a larger degree after you recap?
Thanks for such an informative thread... I hope to someday find enough courage to try it without fear of bottle bombs

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I always drink the cider from the test bottle, over ice.

mcwilcr said:

I asked a similar question to this a few months ago, Pappers basically said he has never tried it but it couldnt hurt so I went ahead and did it. My observations of the results are as follows.

1) the primary issue with this process is that bottle carbing is a warm(ish) process but CO2 doesn't dissolve well in warm liquids so you end up loosing allot of carbonation when opening a bottle up. Ideally, you would need to refrigerate the test bottle a couple of days for the CO2 to properly desolve in the liquid but then it would not be a good representation of the rest of the batch. So.....

2) Observing the fact that it is not anywhere near an ideal process, I do it this way anyway (using a different test bottle each time). Once I have achieved a desirable level of carbonation (4-6 days), I pasteurize the un-tested bottles and leave the tested bottles sit another day or two and then just throw those in the fridge. I have done it this way twice now and the results have been good enough that I dont see changing methods any time soon.

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Thanks for the tips! I don't mind drinking the cider without enough carbonation. Since I am trying to learn, I am making 1 gallon batches which give me 10-11 bottles per batch.. so I want at least a few with real carbonation I guess I need to either make more batches quickly or do a 5 gallon batch... more cider for me either ways

Pappers_ said:

I always drink the cider from the test bottle, over ice.

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Thanks for the reply.. never hurts to "test/taste" a bottle of cider any time

Can this be done with beer? I've been reading in the brewing with wheat book that many commercial brewers flash pasteurize after bottle conditioning to avoid autolysis and the yeast from reabsorbing favorable esters and phenols. I might like to try this in the near future.
Would it be safe if my beer is carbed to 3.5 volumes? Any insights that might help a brewer out?

mcbethenstein said:

Can this be done with beer? I've been reading in the brewing with wheat book that many commercial brewers flash pasteurize after bottle conditioning to avoid autolysis and the yeast from reabsorbing favorable esters and phenols. I might like to try this in the near future.
Would it be safe if my beer is carbed to 3.5 volumes? Any insights that might help a brewer out?

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I began doing stove top pasteurizing after visiting a very small brewery in Riba, Denmark. They pasteurize their beers, putting the bottles in a large metal box which is filled with hot water.

So, I know it's possible, although I can't say whether it's advantageous or not.

After first couple of trials using this method I've had good results stopping the fermentation and no particular problems..

Surprisingly high final temp. start 190 F, finish after 15 mins 178 F.
With 5 small bottles at a time in a very large (80 litre) stainless pot.

The bottles were the small (375ml) champagne type (hence the 15 mins for safety).
So far so good....Thanks !!

Hey,

thanks for the great tutorial. I am going to try this in in a couple of months, I'll be making cider for the first time.

I'd like to know how much priming sugar you add prior to bottling. For example, if I were to allow the cider to completely ferment out, what carbonation volume would I seek?

Delaney said:

I'd like to know how much priming sugar you add prior to bottling. For example, if I were to allow the cider to completely ferment out, what carbonation volume would I seek?

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Hi Delany, I use 2/3 cup if white sugar dissolved in two cups of water for a five gallon batch. I used to weigh it, but because I use the same amount every time, it's easier, less fuss to just measure out 2/3 cup.

In your question, you say you will let your cider ferment out. If by that you mean ferment until the yeast is done and the cider is dry, then you can prime and bottle without worrying about bottle bombs, no Pasteurizing needed. You'll end up with dry sparkling cider. Does that make sense?

Pappers_ said:

Hi Delany, I use 2/3 cup if white sugar dissolved in two cups of water for a five gallon batch. I used to weigh it, but because I use the same amount every time, it's easier, less fuss to just measure out 2/3 cup.

In your question, you say you will let your cider ferment out. If by that you mean ferment until the yeast is done and the cider is dry, then you can prime and bottle without worrying about bottle bombs, no Pasteurizing needed. You'll end up with dry sparkling cider. Does that make sense?

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Yes I understand completely. I intend to follow your method and bottle before the cider is 100% dry. The reason I asked for the carbonation volume is that I will likely be fermenting an odd number of gallons, and it would be easier for me to calculate.

I assume therefore that for a 10 gallon batch, I can simply add 4/3 cups of dextrose? 15 gallons = 6/3 cups? etc...

Obviously precision is not key as there is residual sugar. I've never made cider nor do I know how sweet they should be, which is why I'd like to follow your advice for a level of sweetness similiar to what would be achieved with your method.

You also mention that the cider can be chilled after it is pasteurized, and is ready to serve. Does bottle conditioning improve the quality of the cider such as would be the case with wines? Or is it good to go once it's cold? Will the quality of the cider degrade with time, such as is the case with beer?

I appreciate the advice, and tutorial.

I don't know what the carbonation volume is, sorry. For the simple, draft-style cider I make when using the stove-top pasteurizing technique, aging isn't required and I don't notice any difference in the month or two it takes us to drink a batch.

Hey Papers,
I have some bottles pasteurized and waiting to clear. Three months later, its barely clearing. Any tips to speed up the process. When the outside temps get cold, would letting the bottles sit outside help, like cold crashing them?
Fortunately I have plenty of cider from other batches, so I'm not in a hurry.
thanks,
Scott

Hi Sashurlow. After bottling, the only thing I would do is cold crashing/chilling the cider, as you suggested. I'd put it in the fridge and let it sit for two weeks and see whether that helps. Or outside, as long as they don't freeze.

For what its worth, I don't usually have this problem, because the sparkling cider that I pasteurize uses store-bought juice and is clear very quickly. But I know, from the still ciders I make with fresh cider that clearing can take a while.

Fletch78 said:

This won't work with EC-1118 or Red Star P Cuvee. I've done this process, with cider, actually left it longer than that, and still ended up with foam fountains when I opened the bottles for consumption, weeks later. I suggest a person do a test bottle filled with water, uncapped, with a thermometer inside the bottle, and in the pot of hot water, and see how long it takes to get to 140 inside the bottle. If it takes 20 minutes, then go for 30 when you are doing the real thing.

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Why would this not work with EC-1118? I know that strain is pretty fierce, but they yeast has to die at some point. Would cold crashing in the fridge, racking to a secondary and then priming and bottling before pasteurizing work??

sgoehner said:

Why would this not work with EC-1118? I know that strain is pretty fierce, but they yeast has to die at some point. Would cold crashing in the fridge, racking to a secondary and then priming and bottling before pasteurizing work??

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I don't have any experience with EC-1118, but the yeast will die if it is heated high enough.

Cold crashing and using a secondary is fine, if you are making a cider that will benefit from that, or that needs help clearing.

This really is great stuff. I not only have used this for cider, but also plan on using this technique for my sparkling sweet meads and my hard lemonades too! Brilliant and simple!

sgoehner said:

Why would this not work with EC-1118? I know that strain is pretty fierce, but they yeast has to die at some point. Would cold crashing in the fridge, racking to a secondary and then priming and bottling before pasteurizing work??

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I used the method descibed with some cider using EC-1118 and had no issues.

Genacide said:

I used the method descibed with some cider using EC-1118 and had no issues.

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Thanks Genacide. I put everything together Saturday morning and the OG was 1.061, I checked it in Monday and it was already down to 1.041. Planning on checking it tomorrow as it will likely be close to where the Mrs. will want it.

So I read/skimmed through all the pages thus far on this thread. Now that I'm sleepy enouph to finally go to sleep (2am local time atm), I thought why not chime in about a couple things!

1) While I've been collecting enough glass bottles to use for my brewing adventures, I've been reusing PET soda bottles. Once I got the cider to my liking, I'd bottle in the plastic, and once the CO2 put enough pressure on the bottle so that the plastic would hardly budge, that seemed to create enough carbonation to my liking (then into the fridge they go). Once I start using glass, could I use a PET bottle to "squeeze test" the carbonation level (granted, the glass and PET bottles are the same size)?

2) I have this enamel pot that has another pot you can set into it with holes (think of those pots used for cooking pasta, where you pull that insert out and it strains the water). Suppose I put by bottles into a pot like this and I keep the pot on the flame, slowly bring the temp up to 145F, and adjust the heat to hold it at that temperature for 10 minutes. Could this work? From my cooking experience, the insert acts kind of like a double boiler, so that the bottom of the insert isn't touching the heating element directly, but rather being heated by the water. Also, if you stick the bottles in when the tempature of the water is 145F, and let's say after a minute the water drops to 125F, by the time the water gets back up to 145F, the liquid inside the bottle would be the same, correct?

Any thoughts on these issues would be greatly appreciated!

1. i do this when i pasteurize, and it works great, and i agree that the carb level is perfect when there is just a bit of give left in the bottles. but if i open a glass one at that point it often gushes unless i first give it a day or two in the fridge.
2. the pot sounds ideal to me, as long as you can cover it just in case one pops, the odd bottle could have a flaw in the glass and go off without warning. i cover with a towel and then the lid, and have had a bottle explode without any serious problem. for the temps, i just determined it somewhat empirically with an open bottle of water and meat thermometer. maybe that's not perfect but it provided a good estimate of internal temp. 145 apparently is 63 degrees C (for Common to the rest of the world) which will kill yeast given enough time but i'm not sure if 10 minutes would do it, i would think go higher...?

dinnerstick:

It's good to hear that the plastic bottle tester works for someone else, I will definitely go that route. So if I read your response correctly, if you let a PET bottle get to what you like, it will be overcarbed for a glass bottle?

As far as the pot/heating is concerned, it does have a lid, but adding a towel sounds smart to me. I read earlier in this thread that 60C @ 10 minutes would be sufficient in killing the yeast, so I thought (since I'm an American and metric scares me ) holding it at 145F for 10 minutes would be a little added insurance.

I will most definitely test this out once my next cider is ready and report back with my findings. While using Papper's method does work, I just wanted to see if this way could work as well.

no- i meant that for me it is perfect carbonation when the pet is almost completely hard, then the ones in glass are good also, but that they need a day in the fridge still to... acclimate? for the CO2 to get into solution? to chill and that's it? i don't know why exactly but they are less explosive and better carbonated after a good couple days in the fridge. so if you waited until the pet was hard and then opened a bottle then and there you might think they were a bit overcarbed

Ok, that makes total sense to me now, thanks! So when you chill your bottles for a day or so before you pasteurize, I'm guessing you let the bottles come back up to room temperature before you proceed with heating them?

i don't chill them first, i just know that if i do open one straight away i might get a slightly wrong impression of the final carb level. sorry to labor the point a bit... not that important. whatever happens when you chill them, if it's more gas going into solution in the colder temp or whatever, that will happen just fine after pasteurizing and is not necessary before
i also just need to say... I PRESSED MY FIRST APPLES OF THE 2011 CIDER SEASON LAST NIGHT! Game On! starting a little batch from a workmate's weird back yard tree.

No, don't apologize! It was my fault for kind of being daft, thank you for being patient and clarifying.

And definitely keep us posted about your fresh-pressed cider endevours!

I'm new to cider brewing (and homebrewing in general), but decided to give your technique for a sweet, carbonated cider a try.

Being somewhat scared of exploding bottles (and wanting to save the initial expense of a capper) I decided to use PET bottles. In the first batch I pasteurized all the seals failed and the carbonation was lost. In the second batch I tried heating the caps before tightening them. This time all but one failed. The one that didn't is in the attached picture...

I think for this technique to be successful I'll need to switch to glass bottles.

Hey everyone,

I just did my first batch of cider from unpasteurized fresh cider (1.045) and need some opinions/help. I initially wanted to ferment it through and back-sweeten but I tried it at 1.009 and it was so good that I wanted to stop the still very active fermentation. So I bottled it with one bottle being a PET. About 6 hours later, the PET bottle was rather hard and I opened and tried it and it was very low carbonation - but I liked the level (and being a newbie did not want to risk over-carbonation) and went to pasteurize following the recipe at the beginning of the thread.

Among the 48 bottles, 5 just violently blew off the crown cap during the "cooking" and at least 50% of the bottles started blowing air bubbles at the rim of the crown.

My question is now:

- did I do something wrong in the process? Should I have cold crashed or something?
- is my capping ok? Is it normal that the caps leak or blow when pressure gets high? Or is that as sign of the red plastic capper that came with my kit is bad?

I am just trying to get your "gut feel" reaction on the scenario since you have done much more cider ....

Thx

When you say that the cider was still in a very active fermentation, that is a difference from the the method that I use and described. I use Nottingham yeast and when I bottle, the fermentation is still going, but has definitely slowed down. When I bottle, it takes days, not hours, for the bottles to carbonate.

Just a word of warning...when stove top pasteurizing don't do the idiotic thing I did and miraculously avoided blinding myself doing...



I was placing the pasteurized bottles on a towel due to having a granite counter top. Bomber (22oz) went on to a towel that had seen 12 bottles already and was wet. Temp differential was way too big due to the cooled water on the towel. Whole bottom of the bomber separated and the rest went up like a rocket, hit my cabinet and exploded. Somehow it COMPLETELY missed me yet sent glass 20 ft across my kitchen. Another thing to watch out for. Yikes.

Bread is there because i used it to pick up the razor thin shards all over the place

Pappers_ said:

When you say that the cider was still in a very active fermentation, that is a difference from the the method that I use and described. I use Nottingham yeast and when I bottle, the fermentation is still going, but has definitely slowed down. When I bottle, it takes days, not hours, for the bottles to carbonate.

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Hmm, I am still wondering whether blowing air at the rim / popping the crown is a standard mode of failure or an indication of bad capping (bottles or capper - I used old Corona bottles and a cheap red capper). The carbonation was extremely low so if the pressure is to high even for that low carbonation, I don't know how to get carbonation into bottles ...