Advice on Boiling / Poll

Help settle a discussion from another thread. What do you prefer?

Some background information:
Roiling means "To be in a state of turbulence or agitation." (Yeah, I had to look it up )

The Beer Life of Brian: Importance of a Full Wort Boil

I think it was EdWort's thread that i remember reading a few months back. He mentioned how he does super hard boils.. basically maxing the burner out and just letting er rip. He said that with this he's gotten his clearest beers.

He wasnt the only person to mention this either.

In the past, i've used Irish Moss and done a rolling boil.. one where the wort has a good boil and everything is turning nicely. Since reading the thread, i've kept using Irish Moss but i've cranked my burner up and just let er rip. I now have the clearest beer i've ever made.

The harder the breaks, hot and cold...the clearer your beer.

Boil hard, boil often... or go home!

I think something was simmering before this thread got to a boil.

BierMuncher said:

The harder the breaks, hot and cold...the clearer your beer.

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Yes indeedy!

I understand AnOLDuR's logic. For those unversed in brewing terminology, 'gentle boil' sends a mixed message It can be difficult to bring 3-4 gallons of wort up to a boil. That's a lot of thermal mass. It has already been demonstrated that the harder the boil, the better the hot break. To risk sounding overly simplistic, neophyte brewers rush and digest inaccurate information as gospel. They are excited to brew their first batch, and suffer from 'well, if a little bit helps, then obviously more is better'. They cut corners and try to pack the maximum amount of wort into the largest pot they have. If that pot doesn't have adequate headspace, boilovers can't be contained and controlled; either by fanning the surface of the boiling wort or dialing back the heat. A mess ensues.

Certainly, a violent boil can be difficult to contain and the risk of personal injury can be very real and very serious. Burns suck, and they are painful. It's also grossly inefficient; you probably lose more heat and waste more gas by opening the valve full tilt than by regulating it a bit. When you put that pot on the stop, let it rip at the highest possible setting. The valves in a stove limit gas flow. It's what they are designed to do. Once that boil is going strong with a vigorous rolling boil, back off on the heat a smidge. It is not going to take huge application of heat to maintain the boil. Efficiency isn't just the extract and brewhouse variety; it's also about fuel consumption. If you can keep a rocking rolling boil going at 3/4, why go full tilt? Ya dig?

Pelikan, I think you need to admit wrong here, or at least acknowledge that your advice in the previous thread can be easily misread. 'Gentle boil' is not want we want; while there may be a practical distinction between simmer and boil, it takes a bit of cooking know-how to tell the difference. Simplicity, dude, simplicity. A rocking boil is what we want in a pot large enough to contain the splashing; plain and simple. A 'gentle boil' (outside of cooking parlance) ain't it.

Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm thirsty. Time to pull a pint of smoked porter and unwind.

Jason

Can I change my poll vote, I didn't process before I clicked. I'm one of the two who voted for gentle.

McKBrew said:

Can I change my poll vote, I didn't process before I clicked. I'm one of the two who voted for gentle.

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Done- but there were 4 so now it's three.

olllllo said:

I think something was simmering before this thread got to a boil.

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And should either thread start to boil over, I'm sure you or another mod can turn the heat down. Or add some Fermcap!

I definitely get better beer when the boil is nice and strong. During my long struggle to convert to natural gas, I screwed around with a few inadequate burners that could only achieve a gentle boil...a couple of batches suffered.

Thankfully I'm back on track with my hurricane.

McKBrew said:

Can I change my poll vote, I didn't process before I clicked. I'm one of the two who voted for gentle.

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Sorry, but now you are bound by the HBT Terms of Use to follow your own advice and only do gentle boils from now on!

How about a medium-strength boil?... Sheesh, this is like Kirk vs. Picard.

The 10 gallon brew I had last weekend with the propane stove cranked to full only produced a simmer. Mighty chilly that day and it also seemed that the evaporation rate was higher. I didn't vote because there wasn't a category that matched my best attempt.

anyone want a beercicle?

Cheers
BeerCanuck

This is what I'm satisfied calling a hard boil...and yes, once my hot break has passed, I've no problem taking my eyes off of this pot.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hYqVfPn6mA]YouTube - Keggle on the Boil[/ame]

BierMuncher said:

This is what I'm satisfied calling a hard boil...and yes, once my hot break has passed, I've no problem taking my eyes off of this pot.

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Jagged edges, churning inferno. It's like staring into hell.

McKBrew said:

Jagged edges, churning inferno. It's like staring into hell.

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Except there is probably no beer in hell...or maybe just Korean beer. But yeah, that bear-trap of a keggle makes any boil look violent. It's a wonder BM doesn't look like Venus de Milo after cleaning that thing.

BierMuncher said:

This is what I'm satisfied calling a hard boil...and yes, once my hot break has passed, I've no problem taking my eyes off of this pot.

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Just curious what is your evaporation rate?

Note the two holes almost side by side off to the side of the jagged mouth of the keggle. These holes help to constantly introduce fresh oxygen to the boiling wort, thus greatly improving the evaporation rate.

BierMuncher said:

This is what I'm satisfied calling a hard boil...and yes, once my hot break has passed, I've no problem taking my eyes off of this pot.

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If that is the boil that is required - then I have no idea why my batches even work. I heat 4 gallons of water on a stove pot. I get a decent churn and ensure the thermometer is 212 and then dial it back just a bit. No were near what I see going on in this video.

Chime in folks is this what is required and what YOU do? If so I'll carry my self to the store and buy a propane setup but I hate to do so if this isn't required for a good (and clear) brew.

I go with as violent of a boil as I can manage.

talleymonster said:

Note the two holes almost side by side off to the side of the jagged mouth of the keggle. These holes help to constantly introduce fresh oxygen to the boiling wort, thus greatly improving the evaporation rate.

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I think that pre-dates the Coors vented can.

I go with the best boil I can get. The difference in hot break gunk is very noticeable between a humble stovetop boil and a roaring propane boil.

Do the strongest boil you can!

Boil with all the might you can contain. I voted the last option because the right answer is not there.

I heard Jamil mentioned, that too vigorous boil can cause unwanted Maillard reactions, esp. when wort is already melanoidin rich (i.e. from munich malt). It is backed up by some science stuff that I've found in a book:

'Principles of Brewing Science', G.Fix, pp.76:

On the other hand, excessive thermal loading (e.g. uncontrolled high-temperature [...] boils) can transform the simple melanoidins into less desireable heterocyclics [...]
The second level of complexity consist of sulfur-bearing heterocyclics. Heterocyclics and methionine products have flavour that strikingly recalls cooked cabbage.

The potential presence of these compounds in beer is responsible for the sensivity of many brewers to free SMM in wort. Nevertheless it is excesive heat treatement - not inadeqate boiling - that is responsible for their formation.

We'd better make rolling boil and keep evaporation rate within 10-15% per hour

menschmaschine said:

How about a medium-strength boil?... Sheesh, this is like Kirk vs. Picard.

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Heresy! Everyone knows Kirk could kick that Limey peacenik's a$s from Risa to the Neutral Zone.



Bob

iXanadu said:

If that is the boil that is required - then I have no idea why my batches even work. I heat 4 gallons of water on a stove pot. I get a decent churn and ensure the thermometer is 212 and then dial it back just a bit. No were near what I see going on in this video.

Chime in folks is this what is required and what YOU do? If so I'll carry my self to the store and buy a propane setup but I hate to do so if this isn't required for a good (and clear) brew.

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I use a propane burner, but get nowhere near that type of boil for the full 60-90 min. I start off with a decent boil and then dial it back down to gentle boil. Nobody I've ever brewed with keeps the boil that vigorous for the full 60-90 min. either.

For a clear(er) beer, I think finings, time, and temp are more critical than the voracity of the boil.

Piotr said:

I heard Jamil mentioned, that too vigorous boil can cause unwanted Maillard reactions, esp. when wort is already melanoidin rich (i.e. from munich malt). It is backed up by some science stuff that I've found in a book:

'Principles of Brewing Science', G.Fix, pp.76:

On the other hand, excessive thermal loading (e.g. uncontrolled high-temperature [...] boils) can transform the simple melanoidins into less desireable heterocyclics [...]
The second level of complexity consist of sulfur-bearing heterocyclics. Heterocyclics and methionine products have flavour that strikingly recalls cooked cabbage.

The potential presence of these compounds in beer is responsible for the sensivity of many brewers to free SMM in wort. Nevertheless it is excesive heat treatement - not inadeqate boiling - that is responsible for their formation.

We'd better make rolling boil and keep evaporation rate within 10-15% per hour

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I believe Jamil was quoting the work of Fix when he said this. You got the source correct.

Actually, I think people are somewhat missing the point here. If you want a big hot break, you need to get your wort from lauter temps to boiling FAST. After reaching the hot break, turn down your burner and just maintain a rolling boil. I haven't seen anything that indicates a violent boil is beneficial, only things (like George Fix's advice above) to the contrary.

As a caveat, I will also state that I bet the putative negative effects of 'over-boiling' only appear in certain beers, like light lagers or pilsners where there aren't big, dominant flavours (e.g., roasty or hoppy beers) to hide minor flaws. If you don't brew light, delicate beers, boil away!!

I like cooked cabbage.

flyangler18 said:

Pelikan, I think you need to admit wrong here, or at least acknowledge that your advice in the previous thread can be easily misread. 'Gentle boil' is not want we want; while there may be a practical distinction between simmer and boil, it takes a bit of cooking know-how to tell the difference. Simplicity, dude, simplicity. A rocking boil is what we want in a pot large enough to contain the splashing; plain and simple. A 'gentle boil' (outside of cooking parlance) ain't it.

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I'm in the camp of Piotor, srm775, and others with a similar outlook. The boil, in my opinion -- and backed up by my experience -- does not need to be thermo-nuclear. If a lot of people associated "gentle boil" with "simmer," then yes, I will concede that my terminology can be misread.

Alright guys.

I'm glad to see we're back to arguing about brewing techniques instead of politics.

Finger pointing, name calling and personal affronts however...are still verboten.

Keep it on topic and stop pulling each others pig tails.

Or else....

i voted to gentle boil, OK.

Reason: I do extract brews and when using LME as opposed to DME i try not to rage on the boil so hard.

more importantly: the epic battle between Kirk and Picard would never happen, so long as Picard could use his superior linguistic skills to convince Kirk to have some green whiskey with him before Kirk used a blunt instrument to smash his skull in.

Now I dont nuke the wort but I do boil like Biermuncher I feel it keeps the wort moving in the keggel and the temps more even through out the wort







Damn I hope you use good gloves handling that keggle biermuncher . I dont think that one is OSHA approved...

I boil as hard and fast as my system allows, then reduce it to a rolling boil. You have to form the break and I keep it going for the first 15. When I do late hop additions I turn it off before the last few minutes.

Dog House Brew said:

I boil as hard and fast as my system allows, then reduce it to a rolling boil. You have to form the break and I keep it going for the first 15. When I do late hop additions I turn it off before the last few minutes.

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Same here. Once I get it rock n' rolling Biermuncher style for a while, I back down a bit until it's rolling strongly but not violently. Like you see here:

[youtube]VJqhGvD1Q68[/youtube]

To revive this topic.
I have found this research since 1971. in which it was proven that any boil is not necessary.

Ninoid said:

To revive this topic.
I have found this research since 1971. in which it was proven that any boil is not necessary.

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Yes, things have changed, since this thread was active.