The $3.41 Challenge - Lobuck

I'm not sure whether this should be a collaboration or a contest. What do you guys (and gals) think?

I suppose I'm looking for input from experienced extract brewers here. The same thing could be done, I'm sure, for All-Grain folks, but since I couldn't participate in that, I will leave that up to you. Anyway, I got this idea for a $3.41 Challenge.

Having read all of the threads about people wanting to brew something like BMC, and having read all the threads about people wanting a quick and cheap buzz, I got to thinking... What kind of beer could you brew as cheaply as BMC?

I started with a price point. The average cost of a barrel of BMC at a large local store: Buying a half barrel, it costs $3.42 per gallon. Then I began to wonder whether it would be possible to brew something very light and easy-drinking, not too flavorful, but with a good amount of alcohol, for under $3.42 per gallon. Then, I got a better idea and though maybe the challenge should be opened up to have people try to brew something BETTER than BMC for under $3.42 per gallon

Of course, nobody would want to make a 10 gallon batch of this stuff, but OTOH, the more you make, the more bulk stuff you buy and the cheaper it would be... The goal would be to create something that could be REPLICABLE by beginning brewers- obviously, if you go AG, you can save a bunch of cash. So I began to think about rules...


THE RULES
No close-out specials, out-of-date ingredients, etc.

Nothing can be used from your own garden

You can price your ingredients based upon the average price between any 3 commonly-known online vendors.

Ingredients will be priced on the assumption of a 25 gallon batch, although you certainly aren't required to brew that much.

We will use regular prices, actually paid, for any grocery-store or market-acquired ingredients.



As I started thinking about it, I came to believe it should actually be possible (though not easy) to brew something sorta tasty within the $3.41 per gallon limit, though it might be low on fermentables. But hey, what the heck is really wrong with a tasty small beer?

What do you folks think? Would this be a fun recipe to collaborate on? Or should it be a competition? I'd be happy to sacrifice my palate to be a judge. I could even provide a nice trophy with a marble base for the judged winner.


I guess, before people start throwing out suggestions or ideas, the first question is: Should this be a collaboration or a competition? Personally, I have a 1 gallon glass jug that would be more than adequate to brew a tiny experimental batch. Naturally, the more experienced brewers will be at a great advantage in this, but what the heck- experimentation is a good way to learn, right? I think many other brewers could justify a similar investment of time and effort as well. You could just cook it up on your stovetop in a gallon pot using leftover ingredients or whatever you've got.

Do you have to include the cost of any energy spend in the production of the beer, like propane?

What if you're using re-using yeast, do you spread the cost out among a few batches?

Figure $17 for five gallons; buying base grain in bulk for a buck a pound, plus a couple pounds of specialty grains at a bit more, plus a couple ounces of hops bought in bulk, dry yeast for a buck - that's not too far from $17 right there, assuming around 12 pounds of grain for a modest-sized beer.

Quick ballpark for my next brew, based on what I'm paying (not buying in bulk):

8# pale malt x 1.10 = $8.80
2# Vienna x 1.20 = $2.40
.5# Crystal x 1.20 = $0.60
2 oz, Northern Brewer = $2.50
2 oz, Cascades = $2.50
Nottingham dry yeast = $1.25

TOTAL: $18.05, $3.61 per gallon, and I'll have some hops left over. Not even considering bulk purchases. That's for a beer with an OG of ~1050 and ~ 35IBUs.

Gotta make this a harder challenge, I think!

I can do it rather cheap. Especially if you buy bulk

6 lbs 2 row @ ~.85 cents a pound, then 2 lbs of rice for dirt cheap, 1 oz hops @ ~.80 cents, then dry yeast @ .99

for 5 gallons you can see there is nothing to it cost wise. Will it taste good.....? Lol what do you think?

the_bird said:

Do you have to include the cost of any energy spend in the production of the beer, like propane?

What if you're using re-using yeast, do you spread the cost out among a few batches?

Figure $17 for five gallons; buying base grain in bulk for a buck a pound, plus a couple pounds of specialty grains at a bit more, plus a couple ounces of hops bought in bulk, dry yeast for a buck - that's not too far from $17 right there, assuming around 12 pounds of grain for a modest-sized beer.

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Good questions. Ok. I didn't want to open this up to you all-grain brewers, but now I have a better idea- let's set it up as two different contests. I guess I'll need to find two trophies.

For All Grain brewers, I say include the cost of propane for a 5 gallon batch. For Extract Brewers, don't include propane since we will operate on the assumption that you can do it on your stovetop. In other words, since AG people have more equipment costs, we will factor a little bit of that into the challenge. So for AG, include the cost of propane. We will probably create an average cost for this, to keep people with inefficient heaters competitive. Maybe $4 a batch? Is that realistic? (A refill in Chicago is $16)


As for yeast, that was something I hadn't really thought of how to handle it yet. I would LIKE to say that you have to factor in the cost of the yeast, but OTOH, it varies widely and can be reused a limited number of times. What do you think about "cost of yeast divided by three" for the factor? So, in other words, we'll assume you can repitch the cake twice, so you get three batches out of it.

the_bird said:

Quick ballpark for my next brew, based on what I'm paying (not buying in bulk):

8# pale malt x 1.10 = $8.80
2# Vienna x 1.20 = $2.40
.5# Crystal x 1.20 = $0.60
2 oz, Northern Brewer = $2.50
2 oz, Cascades = $2.50
Nottingham dry yeast = $1.25

TOTAL: $18.05, $3.61 per gallon, and I'll have some hops left over. Not even considering bulk purchases. That's for a beer with an OG of ~1050 and ~ 35IBUs.

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So you are $0.20 over the limit. And since you are doing AG, you need to factor in $4 worth of LP, but you can cut your yeast cost by 67%.

Gotta make this a harder challenge, I think!

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You're right. This is still to easy for you all grain brewers. How about for All-Grain brewers, we allow you to assume BULK ingredients, but limit you to $2 per gallon (plus propane)?

If you think that is TOO hard, just say so, but remember... the point of this is to challenge your creativity. Properly conceived, this should challenge your brewing skills every bit as much as brewing a barleywine or anything else. It should be difficult. Anybody can brew a cheap, "little beer". I want to make the challenge more difficult than that. Make sense?

Oops, skimmed right over the "extract" bit.

It's an interesting question, but frankly, I'm glad that I've made the investment in AG so I don't have to worry about the cost of brewing anymore! I'm teaching my brother-in-law how to brew, and I'm dreading the thought of having to buy extract again.

So, Toot, let me guess.....







Have you been watching "Top Chef"?

the_bird said:

I'm teaching my brother-in-law how to brew, and I'm dreading the thought of having to buy extract again.

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Ive been teaching my brothers how to brew as well. they just skipped over the whole extract thing and moved straight into AG.

Chimone said:

Ive been teaching my brothers how to brew as well. they just skipped over the whole extract thing and moved straight into AG.

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Not really an option for him, unfortunately, due to his living arrangements. He really wants to watch me actually brew, not just explain it to him. So, going back to the stovetop, ice baths, all of that jazz for one last time (it'll likely be pretty cold, anyway). Thinking a hefe would be a good choice, from what people say they're just as good made from extract anyway.

the_bird said:

So, Toot, let me guess.....


Have you been watching "Top Chef"?

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No. Never heard of it actually. Is it on Food Channel or something? My inspiration came from reading a bunch of statements about how, if you like BMC and want to brew a clone, then just buy the beer and save yourself the money. I just started wondering whether it'd actually be possible to give these newbs a "lesson" in tasty cheap beer by coming up with a cheaper recipe. Then, as I was thinking about it in my favorite pub last night, the idea kind of expanded into just brewing ANYTHING cheaper than BMC... so long as it tastes better as well.

The idea, originally conceived, was for extract brewers. But just a few minutes ago, I thought to myself, "why be exclusionary? Just come up with a comparable challenge for you AG folks.

Really, for the Extract Brewers, I think the competition would come down to three things: Hops utilization, adjuncts, and alcohol boosters (corn sugar or whatever). For the AG guys, it'd probably be more about using the most commonly available ingredients in creative ways.

Toot

you are forgetting one VERY important reason BMC can make beer for about $3.42 a gallon . . . . VOLUME. They are buying so much malt, hops, yeast and such that they get a HUGE break on the costs compared to the average home brewer. Dont get me wrong I think it's totally possible and really wouldnt be that hard (dont count the heat costs, will be too hard to actually figure out exactly how much heat you used and then to figure out the cost of each individual BTU).

In fact I'll do some shopping around and come up with something for ya based on normal amounts a homebrewer would purchase if he was buying his ingrediants for only a single batch and not in bulk

Pumbaa said:

Toot

you are forgetting one VERY important reason BMC can make beer for about $3.42 a gallon . . . . VOLUME. They are buying so much malt, hops, yeast and such that they get a HUGE break on the costs compared to the average home brewer. Dont get me wrong I think it's totally possible and really wouldnt be that hard (dont count the heat costs, will be too hard to actually figure out exactly how much heat you used and then to figure out the cost of each individual BTU).

In fact I'll do some shopping around and come up with something for ya based on normal amounts a homebrewer would purchase if he was buying his ingrediants for only a single batch and not in bulk

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I'm not forgetting about the advantage of buying in bulk, but there is something that you are forgetting.... Although BMC can buy ingredients in bulk, they have to pay union wages to brew that beer. Then they have to put it on a truck and ship it somewhere in order to sell it to a distributor who marks up the price before selling it to a retailer who also marks up the price and pays to have it delivered. They also have to pay for marketers to trick people into thinking it tastes good. And they have to pay for labels, and advertising. You, by comparison, have NONE of these costs.

In light of all this, I was actually starting to think that $3.41 per gallon might be a little bit too generous... even for an extract batch! That maybe I should knock it down to $2.29 (33% less than the cost of BMC). Or maybe just make it an even $2/gallon limit, extract brews only, in order to really challenge peoples' brewing and tasting talents.

I mean, for a 5 gallon batch, it works out to ($3.41 x 5gals) $17.05. That's enough money to buy 6 pounds of extract, 2 ounces of hops, and a packet of dry yeast. That's what most "beer kits" already include!!!! There's no challenge in that! Clearly we need to LOWER the cost to really make it into a challenge.

I am thinking that maybe this should be renamed the $20.07 Challenge. You have to brew 10 gallons of beer and spend less than $20.07 on ingredients (or $10.03 for a 5 gallon batch). That's $2.07 per gallon average cost. I think that that would be a REAL challenge. Wouldn't you agree?

If it's selling at $3.42 a gallon then they are making it for helluva lot less.

Fun challenge though.

How much does corn syrup cost?

orfy said:

If it's selling at $3.42 a gallon then they are making it for helluva lot less.

Fun challenge though.

How much does corn syrup cost?

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I know they are making it for less. The impetus is to silence the people who say you can't extract brew for less than the cost of buying BMC at the store.

And yes, I've been having fun since last night, dreaming up different adjuncts and sugars that I can use to make a good tasting beer with a minimum amount of $3/pound LME.

According to Peapod.com (maybe we can use that as a common reference for any non-brewing-specific ingredients?), corn syrup costs $0.19 per ounce.

See, here's what's tough.

If we're buying rice syrup a la The King, we're playing five bucks for a pound from Northern Brewer(unless someone knows where to buy it cheaper). I doubt corn syrup would be much cheaper, in the form available to homebrewers.

There seems to me to be a couple of key questions:

1. What's the minimum acceptable alcohol percentage for "beer"? 3%?

2. How much table sugar is acceptable as a percent of the total fermentables? 20%? 30%? Honestly, this is a question I *don't* want to know the answer to.

One thought that runs in my head; can you get by with using more cheap table sugar if you make it into invert sugar? Is that the right term, where you add a little bit of citric acid?

Well, I found the trophy that can be given to the winner (if we decide this should be a contest). It's an old bowling trophy, but I can replace the bowler with something more appropriate... maybe an eagle? Or a bottle cap? Or something? I'll figure it out. And if I can get 5 people to commit to brewing something and sending out a bottle or two to myself and maybe 2 other judges (to be determined later), then I'll gladly pop for the cost of getting an actual engraved plate with the winner's name and such.

Maybe we can think of this as a contest for completely non-snobby brewers? In other words, no style guidelines, no limits, whoever brews the best damned beer for the lowest price wins.

The judges (whoever they may be, preferably upstanding and well-respected members of HBT.. plus me too, of course ) will put our heads together to come up with a judging criteria. Maybe things such as:

Each category, rate from 1 to 5 points:

How beer-like does it taste?
(Obviously, it's got to taste like beer)

Does it use all of the traditional beer ingredients in a discernable quantity?
(Got hops, malt, yeast, and water?)

How close does it come to tasting like ANY commercial beer?
(so it's sort of a clone-contest, since it's got to taste like SOME sort of beer. This is just a test of whether you were able to mimic a particular style without spending big bucks)

Then add points based on the percentage of ABV
Under 3.5%ABV: 2 point deduction
3.5-4.5%: 1 point
4.6%ABV or more: 4 points

Then assign 1 to 15 points on general quality
(how "tasty" is it?)


Since we aren't using style guidelines, obviously it wouldn't be fair to rate the beers on things such as mouthfeel, or flavor, clarity, or any other traditional metric. We've just got to go by which one is the "tastiest".

Oh goodness. I saw this on peapod.com while looking for a sugar "substitute".

http://www.peapod.com/itemDetail_frame.jhtml?productId=142500&storeId=10&NUM=1167251596376


Maybe I could make a Tequiza clone!

can't follow the link.

So, assuming people actually want to do this once the rules are decided, does anybody have any nominations for judges? Also, if anybody wants to join a "rules committee" and email back and forth with me on judging criteria, that'd be cool too. I've never been a judge before, let alone created, judging criteria like this!

orfy said:

can't follow the link.

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Whoops. Do a search on peapod.com for "Madhava"

Madhava Agave Nectar Amber 100% Natural Sweetener
INFO:
Natural sweetener. Mild & delicious. Certified USDA organic. 100% Pure Agave Nectar. Agave Nectar is an exciting new natural sweetener made from the juice of the agave plant. Its delicious mild succulent flavor and satisfying sweetness are perfectly suited for all of your sweetening needs. Madhava's Agave Nectar has many fine qualities that make it ideal for all around use. Among them are its certified purity, consistent flavor, a high fructose content and a lengthy shelf life (won't crystallize). And, importantly, agave nectar has a low glycemic index that is beneficial for many. Plus, it is so easy to use because it pours and dissolves quickly even in cold food or drinks. But, best of all, it simply tastes great and enhances the flavors of any food it sweetens. Enjoy! Product of Mexico.

I don't like adding the fixed propane cost to the AG contest because I use natural gas. At the very most, I spend about $1.50 on gas for an entire brew day. My last brew was a 15 gallon batch with 40 lbs of grain, fermented out to 7% alcohol. Here's the price breakdown:

RO Water/Brewing salts: $5.00
Grain: $32.60
Hops: $9.25
Whirlfloc: $.75
Yeast: $5.75
DME (yeast starter): $1.00
Gas: $1.50
Total: $55.85 OR $3.72/gallon.

If I used all 2-row and some of my bulk hops, I'd have a lightly flavored 5% beer and subtract $28.85 from the cost, putting me at $1.80/gallon.

Factoring equipment costs into the competition doesn't make sense, because I doubt that equipment overhead is figured into your BMC cost/gallon numbers. Energy cost should be a moot point - assume everyone uses the same amount of energy in brewing.

I agree that $2.00/gallon (ingredients ONLY) is a reasonable challenge for AG brewers - it should be reasonably difficult to get the specialty grains, adjuncts, and/or hops quantities to make a really flavorful beer for that cost.

Ok.. so then I'd then counter-propose $1.50 per gallon (ingredients only) for all-grain brewers.

Now get more creative!

You'll be rewarded, therefore, for having a high extraction efficiency.


Oh.. and cost of carbonation will also not be included (since it'll be more competitive if bottle-conditioning people can compete on a level playing field with CO2 people)

Are you allowing reuse of yeast.

My last brew

£5 - pale malt
£1 - specialty malt
£2 - yeast
£2 - hops

£10 for 6 Gallons. so $3.13 per gallon

But for BMC
£3 - malt
£1 - sugar
£.5 - (reuse yeast)
£1 - hops

£5.50 for 6 gallon or $1.80 per gallon

Toot:

While you're adding/subtracting points for ABV, why not add/subtract points for cost.

IE:
All - Grain
Under $1.50 = +3 points
$1.50 - $2.00 = +2 points
$2.00 - $2.75 = +1 points
$2.76 and up = 0 points

Extract:
Under $2.00 = +3 points
$2.00 - $2.75 = +2 points
$2.75 - $3.41 = +1 points
$3.42 and up = 0 points

I also think you should come up with a standard ingredient list and cost as of 'today' and let people pay what they must, assuming they COULD buy from that vendor to get that price.

IE: Pale 2-row, pre cracked = $0.89/lb. We calculate everyone based upon that exact amount, even if you go get it for $1.15 a pound just to brew the thing this week.

orfy said:

Are you allowing reuse of yeast.

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Take the cost of yeast, averaged, from any 3 online sources (shipping excluded). Divide that average by three (assuming 3 uses for each purchase of yeast).

So, if the yeast is available from 3 different suppliers at a cost of $1.50, then your yeast cost for the purpose of the Buck-and-a-Half Challenge is $0.50.

Toot said:

Ok.. so then I'd then counter-propose $1.50 per gallon (ingredients only) for all-grain brewers.

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IMHO, you're on. I just compared extract vs grain prices at www.morebeer.com, and that seems reasonable. Extract brewers are going to spend roughly 70% of their budget on extract, where AG brewers will easily spend less than 50% of it on grain.

This hits the style in the middle.
I thought if I went for a high AA hop I could use less.

What would the cost be?

jezter6 said:

Toot:

While you're adding/subtracting points for ABV, why not add/subtract points for cost.

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While I have no objection, in principle, to people sending me ANY free beer, for the purpose of this challenge, I want to have a hard limit on cost. I want people to go through the pain of having to throw their "awesome recipe" out the window in order to make the cut, rather than allow them to submit it with some minor deduction.

But the cost-criteria could be done the other way too. So maybe something like...


All - Grain
Under $1.00 = +8 points
$1.01 - $1.25 = +5 points
$1.26 - $1.50 = +2 points
$1.51 and up = minus three points for every ten cents over- always to be rounded UP. (so $1.52 is a 3 point deduction).

Extract:
Under $1.50 = +8 points
$1.51 - $1.65 = +6 points
$1.66 - $1.80 = +4 points
$1.81 - $2.00 = 2 points
$2.01 and up = minus three points for every fifteen cents over- always to be rounded up. (so $2.01 through $2.16 is a 3 point deduction).

I also think you should come up with a standard ingredient list and cost as of 'today' and let people pay what they must, assuming they COULD buy from that vendor to get that price.

IE: Pale 2-row, pre cracked = $0.89/lb. We calculate everyone based upon that exact amount, even if you go get it for $1.15 a pound just to brew the thing this week.

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I agree. But I don't want to have to go through and determine the "price" of every conceivable ingredient, so I'll leave it up to the brewer. The brewer will be responsible for DOCUMENTING the "market price" of the items he uses. The "market price" will be whatever at least three MAJOR suppliers are charging. So, if you want to use SmithCo's DME, then you go to Austinhomebrew.com, northernbrewer.com, homebrewheaven.com, etc and you pick the THREE lowest prices for SmithCo DME, and average them. That is the "market price" for that item and that is the price you will use.

If you go to your LHBS and they charge twice as much for the same thing? Then that will not count against you.

I want to be on the competition committee! I won't judge because I can't stand that yellow pee water crap, but I'm definately in for other adjudication responsibilities.

orfy said:

This hits the style in the middle.
I thought if I went for a high AA hop I could use less.

What would the cost be?

Done

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LMAO!!!!


I do not want to price everything for everybody. PLEASE do it yourself! But, as an example...

I found American 2 row, from three major suppliers, for between $0.99 and $1.00 per pound. So that cost is $0.99 per pound. You have 2.3Kg, so that's $5.00

I found three sites with British Crystal 50-60L. They sold for $1.40, $1.50, and $1.50 per pound. That's a $1.47/lb average. You need a half a kilo, or 1.104 pounds, so that works out to $1.62

Rice Syrup goes for between $4.99 and $5.00 a pound. So you need $2.76

Corn Sugar is a buck a pound in bulk so that's $0.55.

Now, hops will be priced by the pound. For NorthernBrewer hops, I found them for $10.90, $12.50, and $9.00. That comes out to $10.80 per pound. Your recipe calls for 3 ounces, so that's $2.03.

Your total comes to: $11.96


Of course, if you shop around other commonly known websites, you may be able to save a couple pennies here or there by finding a cheaper price. So long as the prices you find are "in the ballpark" of everyone else's, I'm not going to worry too much. On the one hand, I don't intend to let people "bargain shop" to get more ingredients. On the other hand, I don't want people to worry about it too much either. If your estimated value seems reasonable, nobody is likely to question it.

Your total comes to: $11.96

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comes to $2.39

Here's what I priced at morebeer.com I changed my recipe a little but kept it in style.

5lbs Bulk 2 row @ $29.95/50lbs = $3.00
1oz crystal @ $1.35/lbs = $0.03
0.5lb corn sugar @ $1.60/lbs = $0.80
0.5lb rice extract @ $3.95/lbs = $1.48
0.4oz Hops @$5.50/4oz = $0.55
1 pack Yeast @ $1.60/pack (/3) = $0.55

Total for 5 gallon = 3+.3+.8+1.48+.55+.55 = $6.68

or $1.34 a gallon.

jezter6 said:

I want to be on the competition committee! I won't judge because I can't stand that yellow pee water crap, but I'm definately in for other adjudication responsibilities.

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The point is to make the best beer you can within the cost constraints, not necessarily to replicate pee water crap.

Anyway, I welcome you to the rules committee and the competition committee! So far, we have this for rules:

THE RULES
1. No close-out specials, out-of-date ingredients, etc.

2. Nothing can be used "for free" from your own garden

3. You can buy your ingredients from ANY supplier. The actual price paid is irrelevant. For purposes of judging, your ingredient price is based upon the lowest price charged by any one of the following commonly-known online vendors: northernbrewer, austinhomebrew, morebeer.com. You are responsible for furnishing this information. Again, sale prices, special prices, and close-outs, do NOT count.

4. Because water quality varies significantly, you may use any water costing less than $0.99 per gallon without adding it to your cost.

5. For purposes of this contest, taxes and shipping are EXCLUDED from the price.

6. For Extract Brewers, malt will be priced on the assumption that you are purchasing an adequate amount for a 25 gallon batch. For All-Grain brewers, malt will be priced on the assumption that you are buying a 55lb bag. For all brewers, hops will be priced by the pound.

7. If any non-brewing adjunct is used, peapod.com will be used to determine the cost of that adjunct. If unavailable at peapod, the decision of the judges is final.

8. The cost of the yeast shall be computed as per rule #3 except that, once averaged, the cost of the yeast will be divided by three to account for the possibility of repitching the yeast cake a time or two.

9. There is an ABSOLUTE prohibition on the addition of alcohol such as vodka or everclear to increase the alcohol content. That means no "bourbon stouts" folks!

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Anything I'm forgetting?

And this for judging criteria:

Each category, rate from 1 to 5 points:

1. How beer-like does it taste?
(Obviously, it's got to taste like beer)

2. Does it use all of the traditional beer ingredients in a discernable quantity?
(Got hops, malt, yeast, and water?)

3. How close does it come to tasting like ANY commercial beer?
(so it's sort of a clone-contest, since it's got to taste like SOME sort of beer. It does NOT have to taste like BMC! It can taste like a Belgian, if you can swing it! This is just a test of whether you were able to mimic a particular style without spending big bucks)

4. Then add points based on the percentage of ABV
Under 3.5%ABV: 2 point deduction
3.5-4.5%: 2 point
4.6%ABV or more: 6 points

5. Then assign 1 to 15 points on general quality
(how "tasty" is it?)
Since we aren't using style guidelines, obviously it wouldn't be fair to rate the beers on things such as mouthfeel, or flavor, clarity, or any other traditional metric. We've just got to go by which one is the "tastiest".

6. All - Grain
Under $1.00 = +8 points
$1.01 - $1.09 = +6 points
$1.10 - $1.19 = +4 points
$1.20 - $1.35 = +2 points
$1.36 and up = minus three points for every seven cents over- always to be rounded UP. (so $1.37 is a 3 point deduction).

Extract:
Under $1.50 = +8 points
$1.51 - $1.65 = +6 points
$1.66 - $1.80 = +4 points
$1.81 - $2.07 = +2 points
$2.08 and up = minus three points for every fifteen cents over- always to be rounded up. (so $2.09 through $2.23 is a 3 point deduction).



Add up the maximum possible points and set it on a scale from 0 to 100.

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VERY IMPORTANT: Because I don't have confidence in my ability to create a fair judging system, the above judging sheet (or whichever one is ultimately used by the intrepid souls volunteering their palates), will be for SUBJECTIVE purposes! It is intended to help capture the "spirit" of the competition, but may not tell the whole story as to why one particular beer was ultimately chosen as the winner.

Yuri_Rage said:

IMHO, you're on. I just compared extract vs grain prices at www.morebeer.com, and that seems reasonable. Extract brewers are going to spend roughly 70% of their budget on extract, where AG brewers will easily spend less than 50% of it on grain.

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I was thinking about having two different "categories" for AG and Extract, not really putting them head-to-head, but if we get the relative amounts right, then I suppose we could do this as an open challenge for both AG and Extract brewers.

I should probably drop it to what? $1.35 for all grainers? Part of the idea is to almost FORCE people to use something besides 100% malt.

Using Orfy's recipe as a "test", it seems like his recipe ought to be positively mediocre! That tells me that his $1.34 cost per gallon ought to be right around the right range for AG brewers.

wohoo. That means my **** beer recipe is a goer at $1.34:rockin:
But seeing how I'm over here and your over there then I'll just sit and watch.
If you sell my recipe to BMC I want half the fee.

It''' be intresting to see what come out of this. I'm all for brewing cheap beer as long as it's not "**** beer"

I'm off for a Hob Goblin.

I'd say $1.35 is fine as long as you let us use the cheapest bulk price available via the main suppliers. i.e. more beer etc. 'cause that's how a lot of us keep our prices down.

For comparison moor beer light "****" beer kit costs $3.20 per gallon.

orfy said:

I'd say $1.35 is fine as long as you let us use the cheapest bulk price available via the main suppliers. i.e. more beer etc. 'cause that's how allot of us keep our prices down.

For comparison moor beer light "****" beer kit costs $3.20 per gallon.

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Yes. Bulk prices will be fine for A.G. brewers. I'm sticking with the "assume you're brewing 25 gallons when pricing stuff" limit for Extract brewers.

Hey Orfy! Did I remember to include the price of your yeast?

I did.

1 pack Yeast @ $1.60/pack (/3) = $0.55

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I rounded up.