Building a new system - Need some help

BadNewsBrewery said:

You need to match your breaker and wiring. Just popping in a 50A breaker in place of a 30A breaker means you get to burn your house down vs. Brewing ...

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Yea. After I posted the question, I did some research. I need to find out if I have to get a permit from the city to do this.

Really would rather not burn my house down.

You only need a permit to do it "legally" but burning your house down is universally considered a bad idea.

BadNewsBrewery said:

You only need a permit to do it "legally" but burning your house down is universally considered a bad idea.

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Ha!!!

So talking with a buddy who is building his own e-brewery suggested I use a 60 amp breaker. Can you still use a Spa Panel with the 60 amp?

I run a 60a breaker in the panel and a 50a spa panel. No issue there.

BadNewsBrewery said:

I run a 60a breaker in the panel and a 50a spa panel. No issue there.

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Would that allow both 5500 watt elements to be on at the same time? I know they wouldn't be running at full capacity the whole time.

Im sure someone will correct me if i am wrong but i believe on=on. If you run the element at 40% power, it is on at 100% power, 40% of the time.

My kal control panel seems to max at about 22.5 amps.

You do not need correcting. With a PID - on is on. The PID controls temperature by varying the time the element is on. PWMs modulate temperature by actually controlling the power to the element and altering its output. That being said, depending on how you have it set up you may not be running both elements at the same time, and even if you are probably not a whole lot. Not an excuse to use under-rated equipment, just a consideration. Though I recall someone building a system to power to 5500W elements off a 30A system by having some type of microprocessor controlled switching that ensured that when one element was on, the other was off, switching back and forth - pretty impressive.

Here is what I am beginning to think for my control panel.

Any suggestions? Thanks to Kevin for all of the help. I am really starting to understand how it all works.

Are the reset buttons for the alarm?

Are there three alarm buzzers? You are aware that you can wire all of your PID alarm circuits to a single buzzer, yes?

The SWA-2451 has a reset button for the timer. With the SYL-2352s and others you would actually have an alarm on/off switch if you wanted anything. I haven't brewed with the setup yet so I couldn't tell you if there'd be any value to turning off your alarm - I'm of the opinion that if I have an alarm, it's there for a reason and turning it off defeats that reason.

As for having 3 alarm buzzers - I did it that way. If I'm brewing back-to-back, or using one of my PIDs for the timer (SWA-2451) I would like a separate buzzer to tell me if I hit temperature or hit time, and what vessel it's from. If you're only doing one activity at a time and not using a timer, then one buzzer would probably make sense.

One consideration is an LED to indicate when the element is on. It's not required, and the PID should have a small indicator light, but it could be helpful for telling quickly which vessel is heating and which isn't, or for seeing how often your element has to fire to maintain a certian temperature. You'd need one for each element, wired to the contactor output in line with the receptacle.

I'll switch to the SWA-2451 and remove the resent buttons for the PIDs. I like having an alarm for each PID.

One thing, the SWA-2451 does not have an SSR built into it, right? So I would need an SSR for each one.

The green LED on my controller is to tell me which element is on. Would I need a separate switch as well??

I may not have been clear - the SWA-2451 has an OPTION for a reset button. As in, if you want to reset the timer on the 2451, you can use a reset button. The SYL2352 doesn't have anything to 'reset' so having a button does you no good. Sorry to not be clear on that.

None of the PIDs come with SSRs built in. You need one SSR for every element you plan to turn on / off.

If your green lights are just LED indicators, how do you turn one element on or off? Say you only want to be heating the BK and cleaning the HLT - how are you going to turn off the power to the HLT element?

Wouldn't the PIDs control the power to the element?

skepace said:

Wouldn't the PIDs control the power to the element?

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The PID doesn't generate enough current to run the element, so it controls an SSR that does. The contactor between the SSR and the element allows you to be sure that the element is truly off when you want it to be, given that SSRs can leak and can fail closed.

SSRs and contactors are both relays. The SSR is capable of frequent switching, but has the leakage and fail closed issues. The contactor is not made to switch as fequently as the PID would have it do, but a normally open contactor will be open when you expect it to be. Together they give you what you want, PID control over the element, and a manual switch so you can make sure the element is off when you want it to be.

jeffmeh said:

Together they give you what you want, PID control over the element, and a manual switch so you can make sure the element is off when you want it to be.

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This. Both do essentially the same thing (use a small current to open or close a switch) but they do it in different ways, and work best in tandem. Confusing yet?

BadNewsBrewery said:

This. Both do essentially the same thing (use a small current to open or close a switch) but they do it in different ways, and work best in tandem. Confusing yet?

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I thought I was understanding everything, now I am really confused.

So what kind of switch would I need to be able to heat water to clean with in the HLT while the BK element is going? Or would I not have enough amps to do this?

skepace said:

So what kind of switch would I need to be able to heat water to clean with in the HLT while the BK element is going? Or would I not have enough amps to do this?

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What did you decide to do for amperage? I believe earlier in the thread you said you had 30amp 220V. If that's the case, you can only run one 5500W element at a time. If you do upgrade to 50 or 60amp service, you have more options for running elements simultaneously.

I really suggest you read through and understand Kal's build at www.theelectricbrewery.com. Even if you want to go in a different direction, that is an invaluable resource for understanding how these components work, and will put you in a much better position to build a safe and effective control panel.

jeffmeh said:

What did you decide to do for amperage? I believe earlier in the thread you said you had 30amp 220V. If that's the case, you can only run one 5500W element at a time. If you do upgrade to 50 or 60amp service, you have more options for running elements simultaneously.

I really suggest you read through and understand Kal's build at www.theelectricbrewery.com. Even if you want to go in a different direction, that is an invaluable resource for understanding how these components work, and will put you in a much better position to build a safe and effective control panel.

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I'm would rather not have to rewire for this but I didn't see any way to get around not having 50 or 60amps.

I've been reading Kal's build trying to understand everything.

Well if you are going to go with 60 amps, then you can run 2 5500w elements simultaneously with no problem, so I would go for a matched set.

jeffmeh said:

Well if you are going to go with 60 amps, then you can run 2 5500w elements simultaneously with no problem, so I would go for a matched set.

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So would I need a switch to control the power on them or would the PID and SSR do that?

I would go with a main switch (some get a keyed switch to prevent anyone from turning it on) wired to a contactor, so that when you turn it off the switch itself is the only thing energized in the panel. Then, yes, each element would have a switch wired to a contactor between the SSR and the element, so you could turn each one on and off individually. This is similar to Kal's design, except rather than having a 3-way switch that turns on either element but not both, you would have a 2-way switch for each element.

Again, having a contactor between the SSR and the element makes sure that when you turn the switch for the element off, that it is really off, regardless of what the PID is signaling. When the switch is on, there may or may not be current to the element, based upon what the PID is signalling (leakage aside). An easy way to think about it is that when you turn the switch on, you are giving control of the element to the PID and SSR. When it is off you are taking it away, so the element is off.

jeffmeh said:

I would go with a main switch (some get a keyed switch to prevent anyone from turning it on) wired to a contactor, so that when you turn it off the switch itself is the only thing energized in the panel. Then, yes, each element would have a switch wired to a contactor between the SSR and the element, so you could turn each one on and off individually. This is similar to Kal's design, except rather than having a 3-way switch that turns on either element but not both, you would have a 2-way switch for each element.

Again, having a contactor between the SSR and the element makes sure that when you turn the switch for the element off, that it is really off, regardless of what the PID is signaling. When the switch is on, there may or may not be current to the element, based upon what the PID is signalling (leakage aside). An easy way to think about it is that when you turn the switch on, you are giving control of the element to the PID and SSR. When it is off you are taking it away, so the element is off.

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Makes perfect sense now!!! Thanks!!

Well after staying up late last night to read all of Kal's build, I might make a change. While it would be nice to have the option of turning both elements on, I could make a much easier modification to my house and save some money. Rather than running new wire, putting in a new circuit breaker, pulling a permit and all that fun, I can change out my three prong dryer outlet and make it a four prong outlet. Done! 30 amps 240 volts right there.

Other than brewing back to back batches, anything positive to upgrading everything?

(Yes I own my house but we are planning on moving in about 2-3 years max so making that huge change to the wiring might be a downside when selling it.)

skepace said:

Well after staying up late last night to read all of Kal's build, I might make a change. While it would be nice to have the option of turning both elements on, I could make a much easier modification to my house and save some money. Rather than running new wire, putting in a new circuit breaker, pulling a permit and all that fun, I can change out my three prong dryer outlet and make it a four prong outlet. Done! 30 amps 240 volts right there.

Other than brewing back to back batches, anything positive to upgrading everything?

(Yes I own my house but we are planning on moving in about 2-3 years max so making that huge change to the wiring might be a downside when selling it.)

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30 amps should be fine for running one 5500W element at a time. What type of wire runs from the breaker to the outlet? If it is 10/3+ground, then you are set. If it is only 10/2+ground then you do not have a neutral, so you could only run 240V at the panel (you don't have a neutral to safely run 120V off one hot leg and the neutral). You could either run 10/3+ ground, run a separate 120V circuit to the panel, or just run everything (pumps, lights, etc.) at 240V.

Well since my wife said hell no to making so many changes to the basement, it's time to adjust plans to brew into the garage.

Might be easier to run new wiring as the circuit breaker runs straight into where I want to have access to power.

skepace said:

Well since my wife said hell no to making so many changes to the basement, it's time to adjust plans to brew into the garage.

Might be easier to run new wiring as the circuit breaker runs straight into where I want to have access to power.

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At least you have a backup plan!

Yup! Gotta have one of those for most things in life.

Going to start drilling into the kegs this week!

Successful leak test on MLT!!