RIMs system with a wort grant?

So I was doing some research and investigating for building my all electric system and came across a wort grant and it gave me an idea.

Has anyone ever tried to use a wort grant with a heating element in the grant to maintain mash temperatures? Might not have to be very big maybe 1500W.

Concerns I have:
- Would this interrupt the whirlpool effect?
- Not provide enough heating?

I am guessing you would need some kind of level sensor so the pump doesn’t overpower the gravity mash draining and fry the element/ kill the whirlpool.

jtsims21 said:

So I was doing some research and investigating for building my all electric system and came across a wort grant and it gave me an idea.

Has anyone ever tried to use a wort grant with a heating element in the grant to maintain mash temperatures? Might not have to be very big maybe 1500W.

Concerns I have:
- Would this interrupt the whirlpool effect?
- Not provide enough heating?

I am guessing you would need some kind of level sensor so the pump doesn’t overpower the gravity mash draining and fry the element/ kill the whirlpool.

Click to expand...

Not sure what type of setup you have in mind. Do you intend to use the grant for mashing? As far as I know grants are used during the sparge process and there would be no need to maintain mash temperatures in the grant. The grant empties into the BK where the wort is heated to near-boiling during the sparge.

I have a RIMS system with a grant and it is working great. I don't have pictures, but I have some images from a Sketchup model. Here's the grants position in the system, located below the MLT for collecting the runoff during sparging.


Here's a see-through shot of the grant, showing the two float switches that start and stop the pump, and the drain in the bottom.


During the mash I connect the suction side of the pump directly to the MLT drain and establish a rather vigorous recirculation flow through he RIMS and back into the MLT. I am not worried about channeling during the mash, just maintaining temperature. Then, before sparge, I stir the mash and then start a slow gravity drain into the grant. Now I do worry about channeling and having a slow runoff so to rinse out all the sugars. That is why I use a grant so that the pump is not sucking directly from the MLT drain, potentially setting the grain bed and creating channels.

As far as the whirlpool effect, it occurs in the BK and the grant is not involved in this part of the system. The chiller may or may not be part of this circulation flow which could affect the whirlpool.

Grants are not very common among home brewers. I am interested in other viewpoints on this.

sounds like you have a nice setup.

What I am thinking would be the grant below the mash tun as you describe but using it during mashing to not channel the grain bed so as to get a more even temperature throughout the mash, would this not be true?

The whirlpool effect I am referring to will be in the grant to help separate any particles that get out of the mash tun before they reach the brew kettle. basically the input to the grant is at an angle and will be hard plumbed into the mash tun. Does that make sense?

similar in design to this but with a heating element: http://conical-fermenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/WG9-wort-grant-35L.jpg

jtsims21 said:

sounds like you have a nice setup.

What I am thinking would be the grant below the mash tun as you describe but using it during mashing to not channel the grain bed so as to get a more even temperature throughout the mash, would this not be true?

The whirlpool effect I am referring to will be in the grant to help separate any particles that get out of the mash tun before they reach the brew kettle. basically the input to the grant is at an angle and will be hard plumbed into the mash tun. Does that make sense?

similar in design to this but with a heating element: http://conical-fermenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/WG9-wort-grant-35L.jpg

Click to expand...

I see what you mean now. I think you mean using a heater in the grant instead of a RIMS tube. That would work. I suppose you could have the drain at the top of the grant so that it is full all the time during the mash. I think it would need a smaller vessel then the 9.2 gallon pot shown in your link, but in principle it sounds like it would work.

The grain bed in the MLT is pretty effective in filtering out the particles, given we recirculate some of the runoff at the beginning of the sparge (vorlauf). I suppose you could eliminate the vorlauf with your method though. There is certainly room for innovation and experimentation here. If you try it, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

If I put the outlet towards the top I wouldn't be able to completely drain it when running the wort off into the brew kettle, that's why I was thinking having a fluid level sensor to turn the pump on and one to turn it off. The element would be turned off when running the wort into the brew kettle, or maybe I could use that to pre-heat and speed up the boil and use the lower sensor to turn the element off also?

Thanks for the input! it will be a little while before that system is up and running to try out but I will sure post the build on here. At the moment I am working through the design to get just what I want before I start building and change my mind.

what you are talking about has been done in other equvalent forms many times. you dont specifically need to (or perhapse, shouldnt) use a "grant", or if you do use a "grant" you shouldnt call it that anymore because it will no longer be used in that fashon.

all you are talking about is a HERMS or RIMS setup with a dedicated device for heating (instead of using the HLT like many people do). weather you directly heat the wort with an immersion heater element (RIMS) or run the wort thru a copper coil in a heated water bath (HERMS), the end result is the same.

also- if you are recirculating your mash (like you would be with any of these heater designs), you dont need to whirlpool as the grainbed filters out almost everything by the time you sparge.

this is what I use for HERMS, a $7 walmart steel container, a free copper coil i found, and a $15 element...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/ghost6303/beer/815d8e29.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/ghost6303/beer/4032eac7.jpg

it would still be a grant durring runnoff and sparge... maybe ill have to give it a new name, call it the hot moma.

If thats not a problem for the recirculation the only concern i would have is the effect of an element on the whirlpool in the grant (when it is used as a grant)

my thinking was that if you are putting an element (that must always be submerged or else you risk damage) in it, you now must always keep it full of liquid, and it will no longer be able to serve the function of a grant. or else you would need some fancy interlock setup so that it would not alow you to run the element if the "grant" wasnt completely full. and an electrical element is going to interfere with any whirlpool you try to make, and you need to keep the liquid flow over the surface of the element up or else you risk denaturing mash protiens or carmelizing sugars. this is why i would never install a heating element directly into the side of a mash tun, or have a large resevoir of mash wort (like in a grant) that would sit in prolonged contact with the heater. RIMS systems are very small and compact and change out the volume of fluid they contain very rapidly, and with HERMS there is no direct contact with the heater.

also my understanding is that a grant in systems like most people use around here is largely unnecessary, so if you are designing such a system, you might as well just focus on the heating of the wort, instead of also incorperating the function of a "grant".

i certainly dont want to discourage any experimentation though, im just telling you the same things that went thru my head when i was designing my HERMS setup. im just not convinced that A) you need a grant, or B) that a grant and a heater should be combined

edit---

Quaffer said:

That is why I use a grant so that the pump is not sucking directly from the MLT drain, potentially setting the grain bed and creating channels.

Click to expand...

unless the grant is vented to atmosphere and is breaking the vacuum produced by the pump, i dont see how its any different than having the pump suck directly from the mash tun. its true that having a small amount of air in the grant would buffer a small amount of pressure (or vacuum), but thats all it would do, is buffer. once the pressure change caught up (think: a second or two on the scales we are talking) the same pressure change would be felt in the mash pickup tube.

audger said:

unless the grant is vented to atmosphere and is breaking the vacuum produced by the pump, i dont see how its any different than having the pump suck directly from the mash tun. its true that having a small amount of air in the grant would buffer a small amount of pressure (or vacuum), but thats all it would do, is buffer. once the pressure change caught up (think: a second or two on the scales we are talking) the same pressure change would be felt in the mash pickup tube.

Click to expand...

A grant dosent have an air tight lid so yes it would be vented to the atmosphere, the only change in pressure from a grant would be when the pump kicks on and lowers the wort column in the grant thus increasing slightly the pressure differential at the inlet to the grant. Key word being slightly there will not be that much height change in the grant.

jtsims21 said:

A grant dosent have an air tight lid so yes it would be vented to the atmosphere

Click to expand...

interesting... ive only seen people build them out of containers with mason jar-like lids that sealed so i wondered exactly what the purpose was. i guess it would help you dial in the proper flow rate of the pump if you didnt already know it. i still wont recomend putting a heating element in a container with a non-static water level though, but that doesnt mean it cant be made to work.

audger said:

unless the grant is vented to atmosphere and is breaking the vacuum produced by the pump, i dont see how its any different than having the pump suck directly from the mash tun. its true that having a small amount of air in the grant would buffer a small amount of pressure (or vacuum), but thats all it would do, is buffer. once the pressure change caught up (think: a second or two on the scales we are talking) the same pressure change would be felt in the mash pickup tube.

Click to expand...

As far as I know, all grants are open to the atmosphere. I have just a short elbow on the MLT drain that drizzles the runoff down the inside wall of the grant so the drain never sees any vacuum nor any changes in pressure as the level in the grant goes up and down. A bottom inlet on the grant will change that but only slightly.

As you say, grants are optional but, at least in my opinion, help lower the chances for sucking down the grain bed. Many brewers are managing without a grant so if the emphasis is on simplicity then it can be eliminated. if the emphasis is on fiddling with the details to make beer better then it is not a bad choice.

jtsims21 said:

If I put the outlet towards the top I wouldn't be able to completely drain it when running the wort off into the brew kettle, that's why I was thinking having a fluid level sensor to turn the pump on and one to turn it off. The element would be turned off when running the wort into the brew kettle, or maybe I could use that to pre-heat and speed up the boil and use the lower sensor to turn the element off also?

Thanks for the input! it will be a little while before that system is up and running to try out but I will sure post the build on here. At the moment I am working through the design to get just what I want before I start building and change my mind.

Click to expand...

I was thinking you'd reverse the flow during sparge. I have a similar setup on my BK. During chilling and whirlpooling I run wort in at the bottom drain where the whirlpool fitting aims the jet along the wall. The BK also has a top drain just under the surface of the wort which feeds the pump. This gets a strong whirlpool going, especially without the chiller. Also, the hottest wort is at the top so feeding this into the chiller maximizes its effectiveness. My homemade chiller is made from only 20' of 1/4" ID copper yet it chills an 11 gallon batch from boiling to pitchable temperature in 15 minutes or so.

I ended up using something similar to this on my electric build, budget and space made it a little different.

I ended up with a 5500W element mounted in an old pressure cooker pot run off of 120V with a bottom drain through a bulkhead fitting it seemed to work pretty well the bulkhead fitting raised the inlet up enough to keep any grain that got out of the mash tun from getting into the pump and it had enough volume that i didnt have to be really precise with my valves to keep it over the element and not overflowing.

General pictures are on my build thread in my signature.

Do you get a higher efficiency hen using a Wort Grant?

no but it reduces the risk of grain bed compaction

audger said:

interesting... ive only seen people build them out of containers with mason jar-like lids that sealed so i wondered exactly what the purpose was. i guess it would help you dial in the proper flow rate of the pump if you didnt already know it. i still wont recomend putting a heating element in a container with a non-static water level though, but that doesnt mean it cant be made to work.

Click to expand...

I think you're referring to a hop back rather than a grant. The reason a hopback is sealed is because you're pumping wort through a bed of hops so you need the pressure.

jtsims21 said:

So I was doing some research and investigating for building my all electric system and came across a wort grant and it gave me an idea.

Has anyone ever tried to use a wort grant with a heating element in the grant to maintain mash temperatures? Might not have to be very big maybe 1500W.

Concerns I have:
- Would this interrupt the whirlpool effect?
- Not provide enough heating?

I am guessing you would need some kind of level sensor so the pump doesn’t overpower the gravity mash draining and fry the element/ kill the whirlpool.

Click to expand...

I utilize a grant for maintaining the mash temps during the mash. I have 240Volt, 3500 Watt induction heater. It gravity feeds from the mash tun to the grant and I pump it back to the mash tun.

3500 Watt is good enough for small steps in temp and mash out. I also use it decoctions and boil-sanitizing hardware.

They have a grant with a gas-fired heater at Lost Abbey for this purpose.

This sounds like an open ended RIMS tube. Yes, it will work. They only issue to come up would be fluid level control. A couple of float switches would do the trick. I'm sure it could also be controlled by hand, but you would have to be careful, and keep an eye on it. Any screwups might cost you a heating element, and it would make me nervous to have that possibility with every brew. As much as I like this idea, I am planning to make a copper RIMS tube instead. Same concept, only its fully flooded, so no issues with the element burning up.

I don't think that using an electric element in a double duty grant would be very optimal. You'd have to let the liquid sit in contact with the element for a while to heat it up so you couldn't recirculate very fast. You almost need to fill/heat/drain and repeat. Without a good recirculation going, you won't be able to maintain an even temperature throughout the grain bed without stirring. And if you open it up to stir, you'll lose more heat. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. If you plan to use an HLT (or already do) I would just go RIMS. Or insulate the hell out of your MLT and not even worry about a constant recirc.

calpyro said:

I utilize a grant for maintaining the mash temps during the mash. I have 240Volt, 3500 Watt induction heater. It gravity feeds from the mash tun to the grant and I pump it back to the mash tun.

3500 Watt is good enough for small steps in temp and mash out. I also use it decoctions and boil-sanitizing hardware.

Click to expand...

That's an interesting concept; using a grant when recirculating the wort. That may actually address one issue I have had with my 1.5" ss RIMS tube with a 3000W heater. I run it at 750W for maintaining temperature, but at 3000W for step mashes. My last two 10-gallon batches scorched during the step so I had to dump them. It scorched for just a few seconds, but the beer is utterly undrinkable!

Here's what happened. At the end of the 20 minute protein rest (122°F) the wort develops a foam layer in the mash tun (10g RM cooler w. false bottom). As I crank up the heat to step to 150°, that foam works its way down the grain bed and gets sucked out by the pump. As the foam builds up in the RIMS tube and pump, the pump is losing its prime so the flow almost stops. Bingo, scorched foam.

I could not believe that this is what happened the first time. I thought that there must have been an air leak at the MLT drain, so I took it apart, repacked it and tried a second batch. Scorch!

Up till now I have been returning the wort to the MLT through a silicone hose that floats on the surface. That could be part of the problem. If and when I attempt this again, I will try something different, and also back off on the power to, say 1500W, using the PID.

Has anyone run into this? Any ideas? Sorry I am a bit off topic here.

Quaffer said:

That's an interesting concept; using a grant when recirculating the wort. That may actually address one issue I have had with my 1.5" ss RIMS tube with a 3000W heater. I run it at 750W for maintaining temperature, but at 3000W for step mashes. My last two 10-gallon batches scorched during the step so I had to dump them. It scorched for just a few seconds, but the beer is utterly undrinkable!

Here's what happened. At the end of the 20 minute protein rest (122°F) the wort develops a foam layer in the mash tun (10g RM cooler w. false bottom). As I crank up the heat to step to 150°, that foam works its way down the grain bed and gets sucked out by the pump. As the foam builds up in the RIMS tube and pump, the pump is losing its prime so the flow almost stops. Bingo, scorched foam.

I could not believe that this is what happened the first time. I thought that there must have been an air leak at the MLT drain, so I took it apart, repacked it and tried a second batch. Scorch!

Up till now I have been returning the wort to the MLT through a silicone hose that floats on the surface. That could be part of the problem. If and when I attempt this again, I will try something different, and also back off on the power to, say 1500W, using the PID.

Has anyone run into this? Any ideas? Sorry I am a bit off topic here.

Click to expand...

I don't have a direct answer to you question because I use an induction range. It does not scorch the wort or have any problems. If you are interested in it, it was under $200. It is kind of nice to use off the shelf hardware. it really works well without the fuss of building anything.

Avantco IC3500 3500 Watt Countertop Induction Range / Cooker 208/240V

Quaffer said:

That's an interesting concept; using a grant when recirculating the wort. That may actually address one issue I have had with my 1.5" ss RIMS tube with a 3000W heater. I run it at 750W for maintaining temperature, but at 3000W for step mashes. My last two 10-gallon batches scorched during the step so I had to dump them. It scorched for just a few seconds, but the beer is utterly undrinkable!

Here's what happened. At the end of the 20 minute protein rest (122°F) the wort develops a foam layer in the mash tun (10g RM cooler w. false bottom). As I crank up the heat to step to 150°, that foam works its way down the grain bed and gets sucked out by the pump. As the foam builds up in the RIMS tube and pump, the pump is losing its prime so the flow almost stops. Bingo, scorched foam.

I could not believe that this is what happened the first time. I thought that there must have been an air leak at the MLT drain, so I took it apart, repacked it and tried a second batch. Scorch!

Up till now I have been returning the wort to the MLT through a silicone hose that floats on the surface. That could be part of the problem. If and when I attempt this again, I will try something different, and also back off on the power to, say 1500W, using the PID.

Has anyone run into this? Any ideas? Sorry I am a bit off topic here.

Click to expand...

I had a similar problem this weekend - it was a wheat beer though, and I despise wheat. Especially after this weekend. I have a 5500w RIMs, did protein rest, started ramping. PID had element at 100% and suddenly, scorching (flow rate was at least 2 gpm). Scrapped the batch and did some testing instead.

We found that restricting the flow BEFORE the rims and setting RIMs to 100% power caused scorching. We moved the valve AFTER RIMs and before the return into the MLT and no scorching at 100%.

Then we tried stirring the mash with pump and RIMs at 100%. Started sputtering, scorched again.

Lessons learned: at least with wheat, 1. put the restricting valve after rims and before MLT re-circ port. 2. don't stir the mash with the heating element on.

Thinking about a grant or reverse recirculation now.