Electric Noob starting E-brewery. Help pls!

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Cacaman

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Hi all,

As mentioned in the title I am extremely novice when it comes to electrical work. I however, will not let this be a factor in my next project.

What I am trying to build is a Kal's spin off, sort of like Bolts' Brewery. I would like for the control panel to include the following: An on/off switch, 3 PIDS, a toggle switch for the HLT/BK element, a light for the BK and HLT elements, and 2 pump switches.

I think the first step in building this would be assessing my home electric setup. In my backyard I have a breaker panel that controls all of the 240V stuff in my house. Here is a pic:

B915E2E6-6293-4061-B4F6-8A87A3FDDBEB-12375-0000076F377AADB5.jpg


The breaker in the far bottom right used to be an old 30a 240V outlet with 3 prongs, and was recently converted to 2 GFCI 15 amp outlets that run about 25 feet away from the breaker panel. That can be seen here:

4BB72FF0-2E51-4851-B910-803EB52D9F70-12375-0000076F3C523CF5.jpg


My first question would be, can I just reconvert these 2 outlets into one 240V 30A by changing the breaker into a double pole 30A GFCI, and running 10 gauge wire to a new 4 prong 240V receptacle? Or do I need to install a "SPA" panel of some sort?

Edit: Here is the finished product!

Brew Haus.jpg


Brew Haus 2.jpg
 
Assuming both legs of the 240 are there (the two 120's are on different legs), and the Neutral and ground are also there, you either need to put a 240 GFCI in the breaker location above, or add in the SPA panel. As I understand it, many figure the SPA panel is cheaper.

Interestingly, though, if the two 120 V plugs are different circuits, and they look like GFCI circuits (two GFCIs?), you could use a 120V system, using two 120V elements for the boil, and 1 or 2 for the HLT heater. Just have to make certain the wiring doesn't allow boil until the other heater(s) are off. You probably have to do that anyway.
 
The breaker in your link will not work for you as it only supplies the 240V power and does not include the neutral from the breaker. This means that you cannot run any 120V devices from that breaker. It you try to to do that it will trip every time.
 
Do you mean the breaker from eBay won't work, or my breaker panel in my backyard? In that case, what would need to be done/purchased in order to make it work? Thanks for the replies :)
 
The breaker linked from ebay is a 240V breaker only. It will work ONLY on a 240V circuit. IF you are intending to also use it for power to 240V & 120V devices - It will NOT work for that application ....
 
Thanks for your input PJ, you have been a real inspiration to me in choosing to go electric.

Now when choosing a breaker, I read somewhere that it has to be the same brand as your breaker panel. Is this true? Also, how is one to know it is compatible with 120V devices?
Thanks in advance!
 
If there used to be a 4-prong outlet you should probably have four 10-ga wires going to the two 110v GFI circuits. One goes to ground, one to neutral and two to separate 110v breakers. If the wires are at least 10ga you could install a 240/30A 3-prong plug and use three of the wires to a new 240/30A GFI breaker (2 for the 240v circuit and 1 ground). I attached a pic of the 240/30A GFI breakers (at the botton on right side in my pic). If you also need another 110v circuit you could go to another 4-prong plug but it gets even more complicated.

100_0183.jpg
 
Thanks for your input PJ, you have been a real inspiration to me in choosing to go electric.

Now when choosing a breaker, I read somewhere that it has to be the same brand as your breaker panel. Is this true? Also, how is one to know it is compatible with 120V devices?
Thanks in advance!
Thank you for your comment. It is very much appreciated.

Regarding the breaker: It must match the power panel based on brand and function. They can be very expensive. ($100 or way more for the correct one.) Starting off, I would never buy a used electrical circuit protection device from eBay. Never!

This is the serious main reason that I recommend using a Spa Panel from HomeDepot to protect the brewery and you. The panel is about $55.

Your power delivery and personal safety is #1 on my list of things that MUST be accomplished.

Please let me know if I can help you in your project development.

P-J
 
If there used to be a 4-prong outlet you should probably have four 10-ga wires going to the two 110v GFI circuits. One goes to ground, one to neutral and two to separate 110v breakers. If the wires are at least 10ga you could install a 240/30A 3-prong plug and use three of the wires to a new 240/30A GFI breaker (2 for the 240v circuit and 1 ground). I attached a pic of the 240/30A GFI breakers (at the botton on right side in my pic). If you also need another 110v circuit you could go to another 4-prong plug but it gets even more complicated.
Who ever did the wiring in your breaker panel should be taken out and ???

What in hell is a green wire doing going to the output of a GFCI breaker? I suppose this was done by an electrician? If so, he should have his license revoked NOW.!
 
Who ever did the wiring in your breaker panel should be taken out and ???

What in hell is a green wire doing going to the output of a GFCI breaker? I suppose this was done by an electrician? If so, he should have his license revoked NOW.!

I knew that would cause a ruckus. :D It's my work and I cheaped out running 2 separate 240v/30A circuits in one 4-wire cable. I know the colors are wrong but I'm not concerned. Electrically it is OK. The outlets are right next to the breaker panel and is not too hard for anyone to see what I did. It will be ripped out when I leave the house.
 
P-J said:
This is the serious main reason that I recommend using a Spa Panel from HomeDepot to protect the brewery and you. The panel is about $55.

Your power delivery and personal safety is #1 on my list of things that MUST be accomplished.

Please let me know if I can help you in your project development.

P-J

I agree with you on safety being a #1 priority. That being said, I am willing to spend whatever it costs to ensure my well being, and I'm not interested in cutting corners. Afterall, thankfully money isn't really an object at this point of my life.

Now, my apologies in advanced, but I've read so much on these "spa" panels, but I'm not even entirely sure what it is or where it goes. Can i have some insight on this please?
Thanks!
 
I knew that would cause a ruckus. :D It's my work and I cheaped out running 2 separate 240v/30A circuits in one 4-wire cable. I know the colors are wrong but I'm not concerned. Electrically it is OK. The outlets are right next to the breaker panel and is not too hard for anyone to see what I did. It will be ripped out when I leave the house.
You have got to be kidding me....!!!!

Do you know that they make rolls of tape in the various colors to properly flag wiring in electrical panels and the device end power boxes?

I'm astonished!

What you did could possibily be deadly for someone...

Please rethink this.!!!!
 
You have got to be kidding me....!!!!

Do you know that they make rolls of tape in the various colors to properly flag wiring in electrical panels and the device end power boxes?

I'm astonished!

What you did could possibily be deadly for someone...

Please rethink this.!!!!

You need to chill. No one is going to die. There IS black tape on each end to distinguish the green from ground (it's a few inches down on the wire in several spots). I believe this actually makes it up to code (correct me if I'm wrong). I've seen licensed electricians use white wire for hot and put black tape on it and say it's OK. Though I am not a licensed electrician I am aware of most electrical and color codes as I engineer/commission control systems for a living. While I would never do this professionally, I have no problem doing it in my home setup. Like I said, these wires do not run throughout my house. It's a short run and any electrician (like yourself) can clearly see it is not ground and would never tie a ground to it anyway.
 
After doing some more research on Spa Panels, I think I understand them. Please correct any mistakes.

In essence, they are a mini circuit breaker panel that home depot sells for about $60 that include a 50 amp GFI breaker built in. You are to install this in your wall near your existing 240V outlet. The Spa Panel has a power cord that connects to the 240V outlet, and a built in 240V receptacle where your brew control box connects to (at least it will include these things after you manually install them).

The advantages of this are having GFI protection for $60 or so dollars, not having to mess with any of your existing home wiring, and having a kill switch at arms reach during brew day.

Is this correct?
 
After doing some more research on Spa Panels, I think I understand them. Please correct any mistakes.

In essence, they are a mini circuit breaker panel that home depot sells for about $60 that include a 50 amp GFI breaker built in. You are to install this in your wall near your existing 240V outlet. The Spa Panel has a power cord that connects to the 240V outlet, and a built in 240V receptacle where your brew control box connects to (at least it will include these things after you manually install them).

The advantages of this are having GFI protection for $60 or so dollars, not having to mess with any of your existing home wiring, and having a kill switch at arms reach during brew day.

Is this correct?

Yes. You use the spa panel to obtain GFCI protection, and if you fit it with a male plug to go into your permanently installed outlet (rather than hardwiring) you have a portable GFCI unit and avoid any issues with altering your current home wiring.

Do you have four 10-ga wires running to the outlet, or three? Either way can work with the spa panel, but with four you have the ability to safely power both 240V and 120V devices in your brewery. With three you will only be able to power 240V devices, and will need to run a separate circuit to the brewery for 120V. If you only have three and it is easy to run new 10-ga wire from the panel to the outlet, I would consider doing it with four.
 
jeffmeh said:
Yes. You use the spa panel to obtain GFCI protection, and if you fit it with a male plug to go into your permanently installed outlet (rather than hardwiring) you have a portable GFCI unit and avoid any issues with altering your current home wiring.

Do you have four 10-ga wires running to the outlet, or three? Either way can work with the spa panel, but with four you have the ability to safely power both 240V and 120V devices in your brewery. With three you will only be able to power 240V devices, and will need to run a separate circuit to the brewery for 120V. If you only have three and it is easy to run new 10-ga wire from the panel to the outlet, I would consider doing it with four.

I believe I only have 10/3 since all the 240V outlets in my house are 3 prong outlets. To be completely honest, I'm not even sure if the electrician took out the existing 10 gauge wire and replaced it with something smaller to install those 120V outlets. Whatever the case is, I'm sure I could run 10/3 wire with ground if the electrician was able to do it.
 
Now time for some electrical porn :)

Here is what my breaker panel looks without its cover:

EF7014D7-9577-42E6-96C5-CADDDBAA932B-13588-00000812DB19FD9B.jpg


C7E477E3-6A14-44BB-B9D6-77DA274D115C-13588-00000812D428B344.jpg


Does that bottom right look like 10 gauge to you all? More importantly, does it look like this will work for 120V applications?
 
On the meantime I'm figuring out the electric schematics of my project, I have gotten my metal ready to weld my brew stand. Cant wait :ban:

F483ECF2-3EB1-417F-8FE9-3DE6C55C4B85-12375-0000076F41EE8E25.jpg
 
Will_M said:
Am I correct in seeing white/neutral wires being used as load wires off the breakers in this panel?

I'm not entirely sure... Maybe someone here might know?
 
That panel is not to code.. White wires should be on a neutral bar and never used for one of the phases(unless it is wrapped in black tape).

White wires should not go through breakers or switched.
 
This thread is going places!

I'm not an electrician, but when two people with obvious knowledge tell you to get your breaker panel/house wiring in order so that you don't burn down your house and kill all occupants as well as possibly burning down the houses of those around you.... I'd listen.
 
This thread is going places!

I'm not an electrician, but when two people with obvious knowledge tell you to get your breaker panel/house wiring in order so that you don't burn down your house and kill all occupants as well as possibly burning down the houses of those around you.... I'd listen.

No houses are going to burn down. Its a matter of electrical safety, but most electricians worth their salt use a multimeter to make sure there isn't juice on a line they are touching anyway.

Especially when they are at a house they haven't been at recently or someone else did some wiring.
 
All of my electrical work has been performed by a licensed electrician whom I trust. He is an electrical instructor at the community college and has been studying this for decades.

Now, all I was asking was whether my electrical setup was sufficient enough to run 240/120V devices? I don't know where all the house and children burning talk came from :|
 
To get back on topic, it looks like your wire to the outlets is 12ga at best. Maybe 14.

So, if you want 240 at that location, you'll have to pull that wire out and pull new wire in.
And if you're going to pull new wire in, you might as well make it a 50 amp circuit!
 
I guess I'll just call my electrician and explain to him that i need to run both 240V and 120V devices from the same outlet using a control panel. I'll ask him to install me a spa panel from home depot.
 
Agree SweetSounds on wire size and reccomendation

At least buy some black or red tape and put on the white wires that carry power.. Both you guys panels I have seen are very bad practice.
Good luck on selling and meeting an inspection some day if ever.

If i was an insurance investigator of an electrical incident at one of your places .. you would get a check for Zero dollars.

BTW-- I am an electrical eng, computer eng and certified electrician in NY. for 36 years.. makes me ill seeing this kind of misuse hazard.

Cheers on the brewery set up though. I can't wait to get started on one soon.. :mug:
 
All of my electrical work has been performed by a licensed electrician whom I trust. He is an electrical instructor at the community college and has been studying this for decades.

Now, all I was asking was whether my electrical setup was sufficient enough to run 240/120V devices? I don't know where all the house and children burning talk came from :|
Dude,
There is no way that panel was done by an electrician. I'm not one of those guys that think the color of a wire can start a fire but there are codes that electricians follow. I'm guessing this panel was done by a previous homeowner perhaps? If not, find another guy. Maybe the pics you have don't show it but I don't even see a good ground wire coming into the panel. I can see where the other guys are coming from. In my town only two people can work on the electric. The homeowner and an electrician. If you leave that as is and sell your house, the next owner may not be so knowledgeable and it could come back to bite you! I'm sure if you get a good electrician in there to do your work, he will tidy things up a bit. Just don't get the same guy that did that!
 
Dude,
There is no way that panel was done by an electrician. I'm not one of those guys that think the color of a wire can start a fire but there are codes that electricians follow. I'm guessing this panel was done by a previous homeowner perhaps? If not, find another guy. Maybe the pics you have don't show it but I don't even see a good ground wire coming into the panel. I can see where the other guys are coming from. I my town only two people can work on the electric. The homeowner and an electrician. If you leave that as is and sell your house, the next owner may not be so knowledgeable and it could come back to bite you! I'm sure if you get a good electrician in there to do your work, he will tidy things up a bit. Just don't get the same guy that did that!

If he goes to sell his house, I doubt it will pass the inspection which means he'll be fixing it all anyway. Might as well do it right the first time...
 
Listen I'm no engineer, I'm no master brewer, But I am a well seasoned licensed service electrician. Here is my advice. All you need to do is ask your sparky to run you a 30amp circuit with a neutral and a ground. Tell him you have a square D brand "QO" breaker panel. Ask him ahead of time to order a 30amp "QO" gfci breaker for your panel. Supply house may not have it in stock, so let him know that what you need in advance. Forget the spa panel, all you need to do is have a gfci breaker in your panel. Its only a few dollars more and will make your install a little neater. Folks just use them things to same a measly $20. You'll spend more than that on your sparkys labor by making him install an extra box. When he is there ask him to look over your box. It looks to me like it is ungrounded. Looks like there are only three wires coming into it. Please don't tell me that is a meter can next to the panel. If that is the case its possible they double tapped the load side of the meter. If that is what you have you have I feel bad for you. In any event, the panel isn't grounded. I can tell you that much easily from the photo on page one of this thread. Without being there and seeing what all is feeding the box, I can't say exactly what needs to be done to correct it. Basically someone goofed when they installed the box originally.


Just to be clear, your control will will need to have either fuses or a breaker installed in it to protect the 120volt parts of your system (your pumps and pids) a 15 amp breaker or fuse will work fine for that.

Grandequeso.
 
You know, on a second look, if that box is fed directly off of your meter it could just be bonded (green screw through the neutral bar into the cabinet) Which would make it fairly kosher. (minus the tiny issue of taping the wires) If that is the case you should really look at having your sparky put a main breaker in it. It not not allowed to have more than 5 handles to kill the power to a building. That and it is a bit hairy to work in a box that larger with a big long shiny buss bar that is unfused. (no way to shut the power off)
 
This thread has been side tracked so much. How about we take a step back. I am going to simply tell my electrician to reverse the job he had done a year ago. So lets just assume this is my new starting point:

8FB8BB66-973B-42FF-888D-C7B08715CE26-276-000000008232B042.jpg


What if i install and wire a spa panel as such:

Spa Panel Wiring.jpg

And from there just mount this 4 prong outlet to the spa panel: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053#.UDe1-KD3Du0

And run this chord to the CP: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053#.UDe2JqD3Du0

Does that sound better?
 
Actually I completely disagree. Do not connect it that way. The nec doesnt address this for 120/240 volt systems, but this is common on 120v circuits and the really no different. Bascially just remove the jumper from the neutral bar to the ground bar. Installing a gfci does not give you a ground. It does give you ground fault protection. That little jumper can create a very hazardous senario and not lot allow the gfci to work properly if you were to lose the neutral going back to the panel.
 
I know this may sound a little nutter, but the ground terminal on your 4 wire plug will have nothing connected to it. Its fine if you wire your control panel & all that stuff 4 wire, (you may want to use it at someone else's house sometime & it will be usefull then) Your setup will just not have an equiptment ground. You will be soley relying on your gfci protection in place of not having a ground. This is fine and totally safe.
grandequeso.
 

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