Impact of whole leaf hops in primary on fermentation rates?

Brewing up my first batch of Edwort's Haus Pale Ale from the extract recipe. I found all the ingredients at my LHBS with the exception that the dried whole leaf Cascade hops he had were 8% alpha.

I followed the recipe, and got the wort down to 84*F within 5 min., but had to wait overnight for it to cool down to pitching temp. I used S-05, pitched at 72*F. OG was 1.059 when corrected to 60*F. Placed in ambient temp of 66*F to ferment.

I did not have a hop sock, so I just threw the hops in to the wort loose at the specified intervals. How ever I did not have anything to strain the wort with when I add it to the fermenter, so the bulk of the hops went in with the wort.

This batch to a little longer to take off than I'm used to, about 18 hours to start perking, and then only vigorous for about 36 hours after that.

My question is, according to the recipe, Edwort's gravity was down to 1.011 with in 7-10 days and he stopped fermentation there with a cold crash. My fermentation has been going for 8 days now and has only gotten down to 1.028. The whole leaf hops have all come to the top and form a thick cap over the beer.

Could this hop cap be slowing the fermentation down? Or is there something else that could be going on? Should I be thinking of re-pitching ?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

If you're fermenting cooler than his recipe suggested fermentation just might be taking a little longer. If it looks like activity has stopped (no bubbling, yeast starting to settle to the bottom) and you're looking at 1.028 still I would try rousing the yeast to see if activity picks up -- or raise the temperature a little bit (not too much, maybe a couple of degrees). Also, what kind of stuff is in the beer sample where you're taking your gravity readings? Is it all full of stuff or is it looking at least semi-clear? If it still looks like fermentation is still going on then just sit tight. I've never used S-05 but I hear it attenuates pretty well, so you definitely should be looking at a lower gravity than 1.028. Keep us posted and don't fret it.

Thanks Snallygaster,
I know, the perennial advice; let the yeast do it's job, RDWHAHB, and patience, patience, patience.

I couldn't resist, I gave the bucket a couple of gentle swirls and now it's perking along happily. Now I'll just let it go for a couple of more weeks. I was hoping that this would be a quick one, but it looks like the yeastie beasties have there own agenda. Oh well.

I was just wondering if anyone knew if a dense cap of hops in the fermenter could slow fermentation, maybe by inhibiting out gassing of CO2 or other gasses/by products from solution?

Does anyone have experience with leaving a bunch (2 oz)of whole leaf hops in the primary?

Any way thanks again for the advice. Happy Brewing

D0ug said:

I was just wondering if anyone knew if a dense cap of hops in the fermenter could slow fermentation, maybe by inhibiting out gassing of CO2 or other gasses/by products from solution?

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WTF?? LOL...No.....

Does anyone have experience with leaving a bunch (2 oz)of whole leaf hops in the primary?

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Do it all the time, fermentation is no faster or slower or different than using hop pellets.

Lagtime for yeast has to do with how long it takes to come out of "hibernation" and reproduce enough cells to start doing the job, not whether you used pellet or whole hops....the yeast really don't care either way.

And lag time is perfectly normal, and may even take up to 72 hours. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.

I think you're looking for something to explain something you think might be "wrong" with your beer, or how the beer might be acting."

Take a read of this, it might help put it all in perspective. I wrote it awhile ago.

Revvy said:

There really is no "slow" or "fast" fermentation (unless you're temps are high and the yeast are going gangbusters) there just is fermentation. If you have krausen you have fermentation, regardless of the fact that it took 3 hours to form to it's largest size or 30....It really doesn't matter one bit.

The amount of krausen can vary for whatever reason, it can come quick and depart quickly or it can linger long after fermentation is complete, and it all be normal.

There is nothing "typical" in brewing...every fermentation is different, and should not be used to compare one with another...you can't do that.

No two fermentations are ever exactly the same.

When we are dealing with living creatures, there is a wild card factor in play..Just like with other animals, including humans...No two behave the same.

You can split a batch in half put them in 2 identical carboys, and pitch equal amounts of yeast from the same starter...and have them act completely differently...for some reason on a subatomic level...think about it...yeasties are small...1 degree difference in temp to us, could be a 50 degree difference to them...one fermenter can be a couple degrees warmer because it's closer to a vent all the way across the room and the yeasties take off...

Someone, Grinder I think posted a pic once of 2 carboys touching each other, and one one of the carboys the krausen had formed only on the side that touched the other carboy...probably reacting to the heat of the first fermentation....but it was like symbiotic or something...

With living micro-organisms there is always a wildcard factor in play...and yet the yeast rarely lets us down. So it is best just to rdwhahb and trust that they know to what they are doing. It sounds like you are brewing by a calendar, or instructions and not by what your beer is really doing, the problem is that yeast don't know how to read so they seldom follow their scripts. They dance to their own tune and its seldom 4 x 4 Time.

Don't assume the worst with the yeast, realize that they've been making beer since long before our great great great grandfather copped his first buzz from a 40 of mickey's out back of the highschool, so they are the experts.

Yeasts are like teenagers, swmbos, and humans in general, they have their own individual way of doing things.

And worrying because it's not happening how fast or slow you think it should be is really not worth the energy.

It may not be what you expected it to be but that doesn't mean anything's wrong.

I find that brewing is a lot more stress free if I don't compare one batch to another. I subscribe to the I trust the yeast club. They've never let me down.

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It also sounds like you are using airlock bubbling to mean fermentation....by "kicking" the fermenter and saying now that "everything's fine....A) you could have potentially oxydized your beer to satisfy your need for a stubid bubbling airlock..

b)all you know no is that your airlock is bubbling NOT the state of your fermentation. Airlock bubbling starting suddenly doesn't necessarily mean fermentation has started, nor does airlock bubbling stopping suddenly mean that fermentation has stopped. You really need to grasp this fact and seperate airlock bubbling in your mind from fermentation.

Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge, it is a VALVE to release excess co2. To keep your beer off your ceiling. Nothing more.


That's why you need to take a gravity reading to know how your fermentation is going, NOT go by airlocks, or size of krausen, or a calendar, the horoscope or the phases of the moon (those things in my mind are equally accurate).

The most important tool you can use is a hydrometer. It's the only way you will truly know when your beer is ready...airlock bubbles and other things are faulty.

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" like repitching, or bottling, or racking, without first taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on?

Sorry but that really is the only answer that is accurate or consistant, the numbers on the little stick. I have had evrey airlock bubbling/non bubbling/slow bubbling/fast bubbling/little krausen/big krausen/slow forming krausen/krausen staying 3 weeks after the hydro showed terminal gravity scenario imaginable in nearly 1,000 gallons of beer, and none of that stuff is as sccurate as 30 seconds with a hydrometer.

New brewers tend to think they need to hover over their fermenters and "do something" every minute of the day, and the minute something seems amiss, or different, they instantly think the yeast has stopped. But that is almost NEVER the case.

One thing to realize, unless you are brewing a high gravity beer, stopped fermentation rarely ever happens. Unless you have a major drop in temperature. The yeast doesn't just arbitrarily decide to stop what it's doing and take a vacation, that's an unfounded newbie fear, usually based on their idea that airlocks HAVE to bubble.

99% of the time the yeast will do it's job, and attenuate the beer fully if you let it. The rest of the time, especially with extract, it may stop at 1.020 or 1.030. But that's still not the yeast going gang busters on day one, and not, to a nervous new brewer's eyes, not behaving as it should be, the next day and therefore has stopped.

Fermentation is not always "dynamic," just because you don't SEE anything happening, doesn't mean that anything's wrong, and also doesn't mean that the yeast are still not working dilligantly away, doing what they've been doing for over 4,000 years.

Or like many of us do simply relax, and trust the yeast to do their job. If you've given the yeast a good foundation, aerated and santitized properly, given the yeast the right nutrients, and pitched plenty of yeast to do the job, Then the yeast WILL do it's job, 99% of the time.

We really don't need to be all "figity wigity" and hover over everything, doing that we stress out too much, and we're tempted to try to fix something that more than likely doesn't need fixing at all.

You want to know how to ruin you beer? Mess with it.

I pitch my yeast, and come back 1 month later and bottle. And I've never had a beer not ferment for me....it really is that simple. And I have a few medals and good contest scores to prove it.

Just let the beer be!

Thanks for the info Revvy.

It wasn't so much the lag time that was bothering me, I know it can take up to 72 hours to start, and this did start fermenting after about 18 hours, so that was fine. BUT then it only seemed to ferment actively for about a day and a half. Then it slowed way down and seemed to stop, but the gravity was not nearly low enough. It seemed to have stalled out. There was no activity for about 5 or 6 days after the initial activity, but the gravity wasn't really low enough.

The comment about a thick cap of hops was from half remembered stuff from Chem 101 and partial pressures.

I roused the yeast and it's been much more active since then. Maybe it's just a little cool down here.

Anyway, glad to know you've had good luck leaving the hops in the primary, I won't worry about that than.

Thanks again for the input

D0ug said:

BUT then it only seemed to ferment actively for about a day and a half. Then it slowed way down and seemed to stop,
Thanks again for the input

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But see this is where you guys who instantly equate a bubbling airlock with "FERMENTATION" seem to miss...An airlock is simply a valve, a vent to release excess co2, to keep your lid on your fermenter and your beer off the ceiling.

It's always going to slow down eventually. The yeast are going to have less fermentables to consume, than they did in the first few days, so they are not going to produce that much EXTRA co2, and therefore the airlock is not going to NEED to blip as fast, if at all.

But that DOESN'T mean the yeast has stopped doing their job....they just don't have that much food to chew....but they're not going to stop, they just don't go to sleep unless the temp dips down to the low 50's, and they just don't die....they MAY eat all the consumables they can in the case of a high grav wort and shut down, like in a barlewine.

But in your NORMAL beer, they are just going to keep working. They are going to slowly slug away until the job is done. Just not as dynamically as they do when they are having the gluttonous orgy of sex and food....it's just like us on thanksgiving....we start slowing down eventually...but we more than likely keep eating. At least until we get to the pumpkin pie...or the midnight snack......

You guys just gotta quit worrying about your airlock, or thinking that your yeast doesn't know what they are doing.

They've been doing it forever, they are the pros...we really just need to get the hell out of their way.

The best way to ruin a beer is to fiddle with it...to try to fix something that may not be wrong.

the ink to your t-shirts does not work ?