apple juice is fermenting, but the cider is not. why?

Hey folks, it's my first time brewing hard cider, and after reading EdWort's Apfelwein recipe, and perusing other recipes, I made the following two batches, both in 6 gal carboys.

Batch 1: Apple Juice
1.) 5 gallons Mott's apple juice (100% juice from concentrate, with ascorbic acid, pasteurized, but no preservatives)
2.) 2 lbs. dextrose
3.) Nottingham dry ale yeast

Batch 2: Apple Cider
1.) 5 gallons Martinelli's apple cider (100% juice, no additives/preservatives/anything. pasteurized.)
2.) 1.5 lbs light brown sugar
3.) White Labs Hefeweizen liquid yeast (WLP-300)

After 2 days (made batches on Sunday 10/28), the apple juice + dextrose batch is fermenting away. But thus far, there has been zero activity with the cider + brown sugar batch. I purchased the WLP-300 yeast fresh from the local homebrew store, so I assume the yeast should have been fairly healthy (unlike shipped WLP liquids I've ordered from AHS).

Any ideas? They're both in my basement at 66-68F, so I assume the issue must be either bad yeast or difficulty in fermenting brown sugar vs. dextrose. I made absolutely sure to dissolve the sugars in their respective batches, following EdWort's method of dissolving a little sugar in each juice/cider container before adding to the carboy. I know some of you have done brown sugar before, so I assumed that wouldn't be a problem.

I'm really at a loss Any advice would be appreciated!

Did you make a starter (with apple juice base)?

No, expect a massive lag time. Double true for same in a cider with no yeast food/energizer type stuff. There are a lot less cells in a tube of yeast than there are in an 11g Nottingham packet.

thanks for your reply. dang. is it too late to add a starter? can I do anything, or am I stuck waiting it out? if i leave it alone, how long should it take to get started?

My WLP300 batch (unfiltered, pasteurized cider, no added sugar) started up within 12 hours or less; I didn't make a starter, but then mine was only a 1 gallon batch.

It may still start up. What are the chances that the brown sugar had additives/preservatives in it? I've never brewed with the stuff, or checked the ingredients...

Brown sugar is fine, don't worry about that. I would bet that your yeast is a little sluggish, that's all. If you have a pinch of yeast nutrient, throw it in. Otherwise, try not to worry. As you know, liquid yeasts are notoriously slow to start sometimes (that why we always recommend a starter, no matter where you got it). I'd say, just wait it out.

the brown sugar ingredients are: sugar, molasses

hmph. I think I'll grab some yeast nutrient from the brew shop tomorrow. I'm pretty impatient, as I'd like to have this ready by Thanksgiving (hence, ale yeast instead of wine yeast).

i can attest to the fact that it is probably fermenting. I have not seen more than 2 bubbles in my cider in the past 2 weeks, and it went from 1.047 to 1.000. There was no scum on top, but a bunch on the bottom. The airlocks are misleading...

how can fermentation occur without CO2 evolution from the carboy? you must have an air leak in your rubber stopper or something.

bamba said:

the brown sugar ingredients are: sugar, molasses

hmph. I think I'll grab some yeast nutrient from the brew shop tomorrow. I'm pretty impatient, as I'd like to have this ready by Thanksgiving (hence, ale yeast instead of wine yeast).

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Never happen.. at least nothing that most people are going to consider drinkable. It won't even be done fermentation, let alone clearing, conditioning and carbing. You might have something palatable by Christmas. However a good cider wants for 6 months or more.

bamba said:

how can fermentation occur without CO2 evolution from the carboy? you must have an air leak in your rubber stopper or something.

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There always seemed to be pressure in the airlock, but barely any bubbles. it is possible that there was a leak, but it did in fact ferment.

JimC said:

Never happen.. at least nothing that most people are going to consider drinkable. It won't even be done fermentation, let alone clearing, conditioning and carbing. You might have something palatable by Christmas. However a good cider wants for 6 months or more.

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I thought that using ale yeast would reduce aging/maturation time? Even using wine yeast (EdWort's original recipe), people say it's pretty good after 4 weeks.

bamba said:

I thought that using ale yeast would reduce aging/maturation time? Even using wine yeast (EdWort's original recipe), people say it's pretty good after 4 weeks.

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Those people must like the yasety taste. Ether that or they haven't tried it a few months down the line. Cider, mead, wine... sooooo much better with some age.

You can certainly make a batch that will be ready by Thanksgiving, although I'm not sure if the batches you started will be done by then. Ale yeast will take unsweetened cider (starting around 1.055 or so) down to about 1.006 in 6-9 days, depending on the temp. You can check by taste to see if is at a sweetness level that you like. Then rack it and stick it in the fridge for a couple of days. The yeast will drop to the bottom. Rack it again and you are good to go.

Adding sugar will prolong the fermentation time and chilling carboys is a pain unless you have a spare fridge in your basement and even then its still a pain. But this method works great for gallons. I'd recommend taking a couple of gallons of the fresh pasturized juice so you can experiment with the initial fermentation time and using Nottingham, which has never done me wrong, and you should be good to go in plenty of time for T-day. Heck, you've got time to experiment with a few batches and come up with something you really like by then